Light Rail Extension Brings Blight (Phoenix, Mesa: gated, tax, living in)

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

Your theory doesn't really hold water. Look at some of the most centralized cities (New York, San Fran, Chicago, etc). Most people can't afford to live anywhere near the core. They are forced out into the suburbs. Just look at the prices of Phoenix downtown realty!

Those cities are good examples, actually. Yes, many people have to live far out in the suburbs or outer boroughs, but those cities have extensive transit networks to bring people to established major employment centers. If people have to commute long distances, it's better to have multimodal options than everyone driving alone in two-way congestion. In the cases in which decentralized employment has taken hold in those metro areas, it hasn't really diminished commutes. Silicon Valley and the Washington Beltway, to offer just two examples, are places full of suburban offices, and both have horrible traffic due to suburb-to-suburb commutes.

[timtemtym]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

My question is -- after having lived in D.C. with its Metro Rail, and Bangkok with its Skytrain and subway...how is it that the truly down and out have the money in Phoenix to ride metro when that basically didn't happen elsewhere. Are there that many homeless people patronizing light rail? I'm not quite sure that seems very logical.

They are not paying to ride the trains. I used to take the LA red line subway most mornings and while I'm scanning my card for the little gate to open there were always people climbing over (It's not even three feet high), jumping over, stumbling over, or just kicking and cursing. Plus there is the handicap gate that they just pull open.

The Blue Line through Long Beach had open rail platforms that were basically on the honor system and people were hopping on, trying to sell things (CDs, candy, crack, whatever) and then jumping off at the next station to try and vend to the next car. I rode that line exactly one time and then never again. It was a rolling flea market.

This is why the craziness was a lot more prevalent on the trains than on the buses where a driver monitors who gets on and off. I haven't been on the Phoenix rail system in probably 15 years, but it was a lot cleaner and nicer than LA's. Maybe that's changed.

The Dallas DART system is one of the most expansive systems for a sunbelt city. I have ridden it from one far flung suburb to the next. Back in the 90s when it started a lot of suburban cities opted out of it and now they are begging for a station.

When traffic gets bad enough you start to build a critical mass of middle-income business commuters. That changes the culture of the line and they are much more likely to demand better patrolling of the system. You need that balance of an urban system that moves people around the core and a commuter system that brings people in from the far out burbs without making a ton of stops in unsavory neighborhoods.

If they did a line with one stop park&rides in southeast Mesa, one in Gilbert, one in Chandler, then ASU/Mill Ave, Sky Harbor, and two stops on either end of downtown Phoenix before doing a similar setup with the northside, that might work better.

[Minntoaz]

I have a good idea. Keep the dang light rail plan and get more security/enforcement with it.

The reality is Phoenix air quality is shot. Done. Just awful. It slipped even further, making it near the top for most pollution categories. I get it. It’s Arizona and everyone wants their big truck and freedom to do as they please. I’m all for freedom. I’m not all for breathing air that will kill us all prematurely. There are many solutions and one is decreasing the number of drivers on the road.

Secondly, the light rail is not causing the “junkies” to come out. They’ve always been around. It’s only recently that Phoenix has noticed them (I.e. homelessness downtown etc. It’s fun to pretend you don’t have a problem until it blows up. Contrary to popular belief we are all paying for these homeless folks (ER visits which happen to average out at $30-40,000 per homeless person annually, welfare, jail time... so on) so we may as well try a different approach eh? Maybe rehabilitation programs and better mental health offerings are a place to start. I can say, I’ve noticed a big difference in just the past 5 years with how Phoenix is starting to prioritize mental health and it only makes sense (both from a public health and economic position).

[HTY483]

Originally Posted by kytoaz

The slope was full of that long before the light rail.

Yup.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by timtemtym

They are not paying to ride the trains.

And you know this how?

Originally Posted by timtemtym

If they did a line with one stop park&rides in southeast Mesa, one in Gilbert, one in Chandler, then ASU/Mill Ave, Sky Harbor, and two stops on either end of downtown Phoenix before doing a similar setup with the northside, that might work better.

You clearly don't understand light rail. It goes way too slow for those sorts of distances. That's a job for commuter/heavy rail that doesn't have to interact with traffic.

[timtemtym]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

And you know this how?



You clearly don't understand light rail. It goes way too slow for those sorts of distances. That's a job for commuter/heavy rail that doesn't have to interact with traffic.

I clearly explained that in the part you chose not to quote.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by timtemtym

I clearly explained that in the part you chose not to quote.

I don't see anything there that either explains how light rail would work over huge distances or demonstrates that you know much about either light rail in general or our system specifically. I did neglect to quote this, though:

Originally Posted by timtemtym

I haven't been on the Phoenix rail system in probably 15 years, but it was a lot cleaner and nicer than LA's. Maybe that's changed.

15 years? Interesting, given that it has only existed for a bit more than 10 years, opening in December of 2008.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by timtemtym

They are not paying to ride the trains. I used to take the LA red line subway most mornings and while I'm scanning my card for the little gate to open there were always people climbing over (It's not even three feet high), jumping over, stumbling over, or just kicking and cursing. Plus there is the handicap gate that they just pull open.

The Blue Line through Long Beach had open rail platforms that were basically on the honor system and people were hopping on, trying to sell things (CDs, candy, crack, whatever) and then jumping off at the next station to try and vend to the next car. I rode that line exactly one time and then never again. It was a rolling flea market.

This is why the craziness was a lot more prevalent on the trains than on the buses where a driver monitors who gets on and off. I haven't been on the Phoenix rail system in probably 15 years, but it was a lot cleaner and nicer than LA's. Maybe that's changed.

The Dallas DART system is one of the most expansive systems for a sunbelt city. I have ridden it from one far flung suburb to the next. Back in the 90s when it started a lot of suburban cities opted out of it and now they are begging for a station.

When traffic gets bad enough you start to build a critical mass of middle-income business commuters. That changes the culture of the line and they are much more likely to demand better patrolling of the system. You need that balance of an urban system that moves people around the core and a commuter system that brings people in from the far out burbs without making a ton of stops in unsavory neighborhoods.

If they did a line with one stop park&rides in southeast Mesa, one in Gilbert, one in Chandler, then ASU/Mill Ave, Sky Harbor, and two stops on either end of downtown Phoenix before doing a similar setup with the northside, that might work better.

Your paragraphs one and two -- Then there's something wrong with the system. Never once did I see that happen with the D.C. Metro system. Not saying it never happened, but it was rare.

The D.C. Metro had plenty of stops in unsavory neighborhoods. I never hesitated riding through those neighborhoods on Metro...but I hated driving through them.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

You clearly don't understand light rail. It goes way too slow for those sorts of distances. That's a job for commuter/heavy rail that doesn't have to interact with traffic.

I'm voting NO on this upcoming proposition, which would allow light rail expansion to continue as the majority of voters previously approved this. However, the light rail expansion does need an overhaul. It would be absolutely stupid for additional lines to shopping malls as was originally proposed. Sadly, most of the indoor malls are being vacated due to the changing methods available for shopping, so it would make more sense to have light rail concentrated to centralized areas, and commuter rail could be an option from downtown to the suburbs.

[Digger 68]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Can you please provide crime statistics or any other type of evidence beyond your own personal observations?

On CDF? Anything but opinions without much information is how the world works today.

Never been to Arizona, but I get the feeling that the place being complained about was a dump to begin with. One poster said it wasn't much to begin with.....

There is a light rail near where I live (half an hour walk) and none of this would be tolerated in this area. Some vagrancy around here, yeah, but nothing like what is being described.

I use the light rail occasionally. Takes longer, yeah. Hell of a lot cheaper than that money pit machine called a car!

Anyway I hope the problems are resolved.