Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
One of the main reasons that Phoenix doesn't get more large business coming here is the dismal school system. A well educated workforce along with good schools for employees moving here with families is usually a priority for companies when looking for places to relocate.
You are very correct in that Phoenix can't keep growing contingent upon more houses being built and retirees coming in droves with free money for Arizona.
Retirees have taken a big hit with the loss of half of their income and for many of us alive now, it may be too late to recoup and move to the great southwest.
altus2006
That's a part of the reason but another reason is we still charge a state income tax whereas states like Florida and Texas don't. For people earning a lot of money, that can make a significant impact in one's earnings. If we want to attract executives and white collar jobs then we need to make our state as pro-business as possible.
For example, the W hotel project was squashed in downtown Phoenix because a stupid historic society sued and said the building was infringing upon some historic site. Okay, that would never happen in Texas. A judge would never stop the construction of a major hotel in their downtown in any of the Texas city.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 03-24-2009 at 10:45 AM..
The Phoenix metro area could easily be a year round destination if we had theme parks ... and they don't have to be all outdoor parks either. They are always in the planning stages, but that's about as far as they get. We have some big water parks, but they seem to be only gatherings for Valley residents to escape the heat. If we had large theme parks, and were more competitive & commercial about our amenities, we could be a year round vacation spot the same as Vegas & Florida are.
That way, we could have a more diverse economic base. Retired snowbirds who spend a few months out of the year in RV parks, etc. shouldn't be something to be heavily reliant on anymore. We have the potential to be A LOT more than just a haven for retirees, sun freaks, and nature nuts. In that respect, the Phoenix area has got to start growing up!
And why do you think we don't get theme parks? Because our state is very apprehensive about spending money on large projects. And the reason our state votes the way it does is because the Snowbirds are intelligent and register to vote and vote in all of these small elections. They don't want the state to spend money because they are trying to keep their taxes as low as possible. They dont want busy infrasctructure that will interfere with their lives or ruin their view of the mountains. As soon as they are eligible, they register to vote and actively vote. Whereas the young families who move here don't get involved with local politics because they still feel "new" to the area and haven't realized they need to take part in local elections. We barely got a football stadium built and that too it had to go to Glendale because Mesa and the rest of the valley was too cheap to get it passed. Scottsdale rejects Los Arcos which would have been a much better home for the Coyotes and increased fan attendance and allowed the area to develop. But of course, the typical conservative old fart mentality kicked in and that project was rejected as well. Look at Los Arcos now, it's a freaking pit and an area of crime as gangs and drug deals go down in that abandoned area. Donald Trump was going to build a Trump tower condominium structure in the Biltmore and the freaking losers in the community prevent it from being built because it "ruined their view of the mountains" This is the reason the companies don't come here. Do you think a major developer like Trump has a favorable impression of Arizona now?
Have you voted in local elections? I was one of 5 at the voting booths under 50. Go to a local election and it's all snowbirds and retirees. There is still this vacation mindset among transplants. They still think they are from Chicago or LA and don't care to vote and become a part of this state. Yet when they see lousy schools etc. they are the first to complain. Well, I ask those people: Where were you when it came time to vote! This state doesn't have to be a conservative bastion that is cheap toward education etc. We have a voice. If you guys would actually vote instead of letting the snowbirds monopolize the voting booths, you will see change in this state.
Nonetheless, I see the state moving forward because these old timers who want to preserve the quietude and sanctity of old Arizona are dying and as more people move here from urban areas, they are going to get these theme park projects approved and they will be built but it's going to take time.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 03-24-2009 at 11:49 AM..
That's a part of the reason but another reason is we still charge a state income tax whereas states like Florida and Texas don't. For people earning a lot of money, that can make a significant impact in one's earnings. If we want to attract executives and white collar jobs then we need to make our state as pro-business as possible.
For example, the W hotel project was squashed in downtown Phoenix because a stupid historic society sued and said the building was infringing upon some historic site. Okay, that would never happen in Texas. A judge would never stop the construction of a major hotel in their downtown in any of the Texas city.
The property tax in Texas is high and I had checked into some of the tax free states to consider retiring to and decided against Texas and Illinois(where we have one son and his family).
My son's property taxes in Illinois, which is also a tax free state, is about $1500 a month for his $700,000 home. The taxes in Texas were abut 2 1/2 times greater than in the Phoenix area, which for us meant paying a lot more out of pocket than paying state taxes in Arizona.
The state tax rate here is also much lower than most other taxing states. I really believe the illegals and clunky education scores here are the prime reasons keeping companies out of the state.
All of the kidnapping national news is not going to help either.
The property tax in Texas is high and I had checked into some of the tax free states to consider retiring to and decided against Texas and Illinois(where we have one son and his family).
My son's property taxes in Illinois, which is also a tax free state, is about $1500 a month for his $700,000 home. The taxes in Texas were abut 2 1/2 times greater than in the Phoenix area, which for us meant paying a lot more out of pocket than paying state taxes in Arizona.
The state tax rate here is also much lower than most other taxing states. I really believe the illegals and clunky education scores here are the prime reasons keeping companies out of the state.
All of the kidnapping national news is not going to help either.
altus2006
But you are retired. We are talking about luring white collar professionals who are currently working. I paid over 55K in income tax this year. That is more than what I would have paid in property taxes in Texas for a similar house. You proved my point for me. The current laws favor retirees but if you are trying to lure high income earning professionals then you need to create laws that favor them. Retirees will move here regardless because of the weather and reputation. In addition, the "no state income tax" status is a huge buzz word and carries a lot of weight in terms of marketing.
Wow, tons of hate from Phoenix citizens... maybe all these posts about the ignorance, stupidity, and misanthropy in Arizona are right. Do you really hate the "snowbirds" or does it just irritate you that these people can afford to enjoy your 70 degree winters without sticking around for your 110 degree summers?
What gets to me is there driving. Before I made my move to mississippi i watched the news where a lady(snowbird) got on the interstate the wrong way
That's a part of the reason but another reason is we still charge a state income tax whereas states like Florida and Texas don't. For people earning a lot of money, that can make a significant impact in one's earnings. If we want to attract executives and white collar jobs then we need to make our state as pro-business as possible.
Absolutely right. The Phoenix area is pretty business friendly as it is because there isn't a high presence of labor unions ... but you're correct that eliminating the income tax would be even more attractive to large business interests. The fact that the entire state still promotes itself as a haven for retirees, nature lovers, and sun worshipers isn't going to bring in the reputable firms, the professionals, and higher paying jobs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan.
For example, the W hotel project was squashed in downtown Phoenix because a stupid historic society sued and said the building was infringing upon some historic site. Okay, that would never happen in Texas. A judge would never stop the construction of a major hotel in their downtown in any of the Texas city.
I know all about the W Hotel situation. That was pathetic! Another good example of how this place allows the vocal minority (the NIMBYs & the preservationists) to decide the fate of developments which aren't even any of their concern in the first place. It's not like these projects are taking money from anybody's wallet via taxes. They're privately funded!
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan.
And why do you think we don't get theme parks? Because our state is very apprehensive about spending money on large projects.
Again, it's mostly the NIMBY factor ... not the funding. After all, theme parks are developed with private capital for the most part. I've seen posts on this board by the anti everything crowd who oppose theme parks for silly reasons such as "it's too hot here", "it would ruin the desert environment", etc. Well, of course it's hot here in the summer (DUH!). As for the theme parks ruining the desert, so do all the sprawling cookie cutter communities that nobody seems to protest!
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan.
And the reason our state votes the way it does is because the Snowbirds are intelligent and register to vote and vote in all of these small elections. They don't want the state to spend money because they are trying to keep their taxes as low as possible. They dont want busy infrasctructure that will interfere with their lives or ruin their view of the mountains. As soon as they are eligible, they register to vote and actively vote. Whereas the young families who move here don't get involved with local politics because they still feel "new" to the area and haven't realized they need to take part in local elections. We barely got a football stadium built and that too it had to go to Glendale because Mesa and the rest of the valley was too cheap to get it passed. Scottsdale rejects Los Arcos which would have been a much better home for the Coyotes and increased fan attendance and allowed the area to develop. But of course, the typical conservative old fart mentality kicked in and that project was rejected as well. Look at Los Arcos now, it's a freaking pit and an area of crime as gangs and drug deals go down in that abandoned area. Donald Trump was going to build a Trump tower condominium structure in the Biltmore and the freaking losers in the community prevent it from being built because it "ruined their view of the mountains" This is the reason the companies don't come here. Do you think a major developer like Trump has a favorable impression of Arizona now?
Everything you said is correct. It's the pathetic "Not In My Back Yard" mentality that stops a lot of amenities from being reality. I do have to say, however, that I'm glad many things are put to a vote. The people SHOULD be deciding ... and in fact, they have been favorably lately. Light rail was overwhelmingly passed twice, as were the stadiums, and Waveyard ... but there are still highly charged groups of vocal naysayers who rally against these things, even after they're approved. What's ironic is that a lot of those NIMBYs/naysayers either didn't vote, or they're newcomers who simply like to make fools of themselves.
I live not too far from the ill fated Trump tower proposed site ... which was supposed to be only something like 18 stories, so I certianly wouldn't call that a highrise! However, once again, the NIMBYs crawled out from under their rocks and fought tooth & nail to stop the project. The investors & developers of these projects eventually give up because they don't have the time or patience to deal with a bunch of crybaby activists with nothing better to do with their lonely time!
I haven't checked this out yet, but I'm hearing that the GM Proving Grounds in Mesa was purchased by Gaylord, and they have plans to build an Opryland-like resort there.
If someone else has checked it out I'd like to hear what they found out.
Snowbird positives:
A snowbird buys houses here, helping the housing industry
Many pay to rent homes, (double the normal rent during the season)helping the landlords who need to rent their property
They maintain their property, keeping their neighbors happy
They buy gas, oil, food, clothing, cars, bicycles, etc
They keep many restaurants and businesses in business
They keep the medical field busy
They pay for their medical needs
They help the golf industry
The add taxes to our state and local coffers
They are good neighbors
They are friendly
They participate in community activities
They do not drive huge trucks and SUV's and cut in and out of traffic
They don't engage in road rage
They don't drive 80 mph and taligate those of us who choose to obey the speed limit
They don't do drive by shootings
They don't commit robberies
They don't run drug houses
They have the right to live where they choose
And consider this, many of them are actually permanent residents of Phoenix, but choose to live in other states during the 4 months of summer.
Snowbird negatives:
They drive the speed limit, or under
They take up a parking space that someone else would like to have
They get to restaurants early, so you may have to wait for a seat if you come latrer.
They don't like the summer heat
So what's the big deal?
Isn't it possible that people are being a bit too greedy and losing sight of the big problems we have here in the form of crazy drivers (who caused the need for highway cameras) and the proliferation of crime and drugs.
Let's keep the Snowbirds, who are good for our economy, and have every right to be here when they choose to be here, and let's get rid of the criminal element and the crazy, dangerous drivers.
Absolutely right. The Phoenix area is pretty business friendly as it is because there isn't a high presence of labor unions ... but you're correct that eliminating the income tax would be even more attractive to large business interests. The fact that the entire state still promotes itself as a haven for retirees, nature lovers, and sun worshipers isn't going to bring in the reputable firms, the professionals, and higher paying jobs!
Agreed and this is the hypocrisy of this state. We want businesses and corporations to move here but then we don't want to do things to lure them here like eliminate the income tax because we want to keep our property taxes low for the snowbirds.
Quote:
I know all about the W Hotel situation. That was pathetic! Another good example of how this place allows the vocal minority (the NIMBYs & the preservationists) to decide the fate of developments which aren't even any of their concern in the first place. It's not like these projects are taking money from anybody's wallet via taxes. They're privately funded!
It's also our legal system. In non-litigous states like Texas, their courts would have thrown out a case like this but our courts essentially entertained their law suit. The judge should have thrown out the case.
Quote:
Again, it's mostly the NIMBY factor ... not the funding. After all, theme parks are developed with private capital for the most part. I've seen posts on this board by the anti everything crowd who oppose theme parks for silly reasons such as "it's too hot here", "it would ruin the desert environment", etc. Well, of course it's hot here in the summer (DUH!). As for the theme parks ruining the desert, so do all the sprawling cookie cutter communities that nobody seems to protest!
Agreed, it's so irritating: "We have to preserve the desert scenery" And the "It's too hot" factor is equally annoying. Ever been to Castles in Coasters in July? It's full of people. Apparently there are no protests to heat there. People just want to whine about something. The heat index in Orlando in the summer ranges from 105 to 110 when you account for their humidity.
Quote:
I do have to say, however, that I'm glad many things are put to a vote. The people SHOULD be deciding ... and in fact, they have been favorably lately.
I'm glad things are put to a vote. I just wish more people would vote. I know the majority of the community favors these things but they don't vote so their voice isn't heard whereas the activists and snowbirds are very active politically. This is why I have come to respect Glendale and the west side (I live in Chandler) because they get things done. If an amusement park ever gets built here, I wouldn't be suprised if it was in Glendale because somehow Glendale makes things happen and you have to give them credit for that.
Quote:
The investors & developers of these projects eventually give up because they don't have the time or patience to deal with a bunch of crybaby activists with nothing better to do with their lonely time!
Again, we have to criticize our legal system. There are activists in other states as well but we seem to pay too much credence to ours. The squashing of the Trump tower in the Biltmore was pathetic. It would have done really well and perhaps Trump would have further invested in Arizona. Now, he isn't going to touch this place.
Agreed, it's so irritating: "We have to preserve the desert scenery" And the "It's too hot" factor is equally annoying. Ever been to Castles in Coasters in July? It's full of people. Apparently there are no protests to heat there.
It IS too hot here for theme parks. Castles N' Coasters is chock full of people who are already stuck here and looking for something to do in the heat. Nobody is going to travel here to go to a theme park in the summer. Even if they would like it if they tried, they aren't going to try, particularly given the proximity to Southern California, where there all the theme parks one would care to attend. A theme park in Phoenix is a spectacularly dumb idea.
It IS too hot here for theme parks. Castles N' Coasters is chock full of people who are already stuck here and looking for something to do in the heat. Nobody is going to travel here to go to a theme park in the summer. Even if they would like it if they tried, they aren't going to try, particularly given the proximity to Southern California, where there all the theme parks one would care to attend. A theme park in Phoenix is a spectacularly dumb idea.
1. Orlando is also too hot for theme parks based on the heat index
2. There are 4.5 million people stuck here looking for something to do
3. Southern California is not Orlando. Their theme parks are spread apart. The two Disney parks are in Anaheim. Magic Mountain is in Valencia and Legoland is in San Diego. Phoenix has the opportunity to build several theme parks in close proximity to each other which WOULD lure tourists.
4. Adding a theme parks adds jobs and enhances the city by offering yet another attraction and makes the city more attractive in general.
No, a theme park is not a "spectacularly dumb idea"
Last edited by azriverfan.; 03-24-2009 at 08:58 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
