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Old 09-07-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,088,210 times
Reputation: 3954

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
The words "separation", "church", and "state" seem to be missing. "Of" is there, I'll give you partial credit for the preposition.
Of course they don't. So?

Are you actually going to argue that the effect of the establishment clause is somehow not to set up such a "wall?"

Because that would be... well... droll.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:07 AM
 
16,431 posts, read 22,209,482 times
Reputation: 9623
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Of course they don't. So?

Are you actually going to argue that the effect of the establishment clause is somehow not to set up such a "wall?"

Because that would be... well... droll.
such eloquence.

No, it is what it plainly states and no more: a prohibition from establishing a national religion.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,088,210 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
No, it is what it plainly states and no more: a prohibition from establishing a national religion.
No more you say?

Well gosh... one must seriously start to ponder why we even have a Supreme Court, because that was just so easy! How is it that you have neatly cut this Constitutional Gordian Knot while 230 years of American jurisprudence has missed that "plain" truth so completely?

Quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
Having elevated yourself to a position of Constitutional Interpreter superior to that of Thomas Jefferson, I persist in my bemusement.

You are a really funny guy!

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Old 09-07-2010, 11:20 AM
 
16,545 posts, read 13,461,752 times
Reputation: 4243
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
No more you say?

Well gosh... one must seriously start to ponder why we even have a Supreme Court, because that was just so easy! How is it that you have neatly cut this Constitutional Gordian Knot while 230 years of American jurisprudence has missed that "plain" truth so completely?

Having elevated yourself to a position of Constitutional Interpreter superior to that of Thomas Jefferson, I persist in my bemusement.

You are a really funny guy!

You can be amused all you want, TJ is saying exactly that. No state religion which also means that you are free to practice what you want. That's all it means. It doesn't state WHERE you can and cannot practice your religion.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,088,210 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
You can be amused all you want, TJ is saying exactly that. No state religion which also means that you are free to practice what you want.
Actually.... no. The establishment clause and the free exercise clauses are two different clauses.

Have you actually never read the First Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD
That's all it means. It doesn't state WHERE you can and cannot practice your religion.
Gosh... all these brilliant Constitutional interpreters appearing all at the same time. The founding fathers were such pikers in comparison.

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Old 09-07-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Massatucky
1,187 posts, read 2,395,560 times
Reputation: 1916
The words ARE missing by design. Not all religions require a "church" and the founders knew it; yet most prior regimes in Europe and the Middle East had established theocratic states based on dictates by the established majority religions. The founders thought that to be abhorrent, as it is. The Establishment Clause in its brilliance captures exactly what the founders were trying to prevent - the subjugation of a population to a religion - perfectly. Without actually saying it.

The Constitution does not permit an establishment of religion by the government therefore an entanglement with religion would be easily construed as an endorsement. That is why the 10 Commandments were ordered removed from a Federal courthouse and rightly so, as offensive as religionists might be. Suck it up. An endorsement is a tacit establishment unless it endorses all religions which is just foolish.

The Constitution was designed to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority but it does not come out and say that either, but it is the intent.

You clearly point out that reading and comprehension are also somehow separated in your mind. When you pass a stop sign do you ask why the word "Now" is not also printed on it?

And the DOI is NOT the Constitution, so your remarks about Divine Providence notwithstanding, are irrelevant not to mention those words may mean God to you but they mean Nature to me. God took no sides during the Revolution, I assure you.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,786,361 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constitutionalist View Post
it seems to me whenever the ultra left can demogog christians they dont hesitate to do so why is this? i am talking about the ultra left i know plenty of democrats that are good christians, it just seems to me this progresive wing of the democrat party and the left media have no problem putting christians down.
The same thing will be said about the ultra Right....do do think they are good Christians? The amount of hatred spewed from some of them, would make Jesus cry.

Ps....as a constitutionalist [as you proudly proclaim] you would realize all political debate should be devoid of using religion as justification for civil law.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:50 AM
 
527 posts, read 467,984 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constitutionalist View Post
it seems to me whenever the ultra left can demogog christians they dont hesitate to do so why is this? i am talking about the ultra left i know plenty of democrats that are good christians, it just seems to me this progresive wing of the democrat party and the left media have no problem putting christians down.
Hating due to religious beliefs is not an exclusively liberal thing, and I think that Christians have it easy compared ot other religions - just look at the hatred for muslims in this country today, a lot of that hatred is fueled by the ultra right- it doesnt matter which religion is targeted or who is doing the hating-it is wrong
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Massatucky
1,187 posts, read 2,395,560 times
Reputation: 1916
You may freely exercise your religion but not through an instrument of the State. That is what the founders made clear. And why would you want government involved in your religion anyway?

Demagog is not a word (use your spell check anyway) and if it were the word I think you were trying to use, its not a verb its a noun. So in the pseudo-English of your Idol, I refudiate your use of it. Shows how ignorant and uneducated the Palin / Beck / Limbaugh crowd really is. Dummies, know-nothings who act like know it alls. Even when they are caught being wrong and stupid they feign indignity and make dumb excuses like after saying the Founders' Constitution, as they wrote it, is 'good enough' for them they hit ya with "well I actually like the WHOLE Constitution, not just the one that existed before abolition!!!!!"
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:54 AM
 
1,089 posts, read 1,527,271 times
Reputation: 1441
I consider myself liberal in the sense that I am an environmentalist, I support business regulations, I support universal health care, I am against the death penalty, and I don't support preemptive war...Now I consider myself anti abortion and I believe marriage is sacredly between a man and a woman. The ultra left is mostly concern with the prevention of all religious argument when it comes to public policy, and they based their argument on the separation of church and state clause of the constitution. I on my part believe that many of our principles and laws are based on Judeo Christian values, so religion is already permeated in our public policy.
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