Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'd like to know exactly how teachers can take normally intellectually functioning children and dumb so many of them down that 2/3 of them can't even meet basic proficiency levels.
Read the words in red in post 76 to see just why they manage that. It was your link so you should know the answer. Most of that crap has come from the NEA and their tool the Department of Education that they used all their threads from federal money to work through.
And give that money back to the rich labor unions so they can continue to support Democratic political candidates all over the country like they're supposed to!
I wonder what these nutty unions expect the next governor to do? Wisconsin can't print money so it has to make up for their budget shortfalls in some way.
I'd like to know exactly how teachers can take normally intellectually functioning children and dumb so many of them down that 2/3 of them can't even meet basic proficiency levels.
Wow. So you are taking supposed teacher accountability to a whole new level? Your sentiment is a slap in the face to dedicated, hard working teachers everywhere.
The tendency is to bring it to the public eye and demonize it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
So are OK with paying them more just because the got their Masters?
If it doesn't make them better teachers, what use is it?
"But that possible lack of direct correlation does not mean they are not better teachers". I disagree as posted in my example. IF they can prove they are better by having the kids they teach get better grades then give them a raise.
Do teachers get a Master's to be better teachers or just to get more money?
That is ALL I am talking about. We are talking about taxpayers money and how to best utilize it. State are broke. The dollar spigots have run dry.
One, and this is only one, way to help the states financial situation is stop giving raises, thank you unions, just because you have a masters UNLESS you can prove it has worth.
Unfortunately teachers don't want to be evaluated in any way. They always come up with all sorts of defenses as to why you can't evaluate.
Sorry, my original example is valid.
The fiscal woes we are all talking about are very real. Yes. Spending needs to be changed and scrutinized. Let's address your question... Do teachers get a Master's to be better teachers or just to get more money?
I'm sure some do, just as a manager at a private firm gets an MBA (quite general and not necessarily a guarantee of a better manager) to further his or her career. But to say all, or even most, do it for the money only is beyond cynical and very narrow-minded IMO. There are degrees in education that expand the knowledge base of educators in a positive way. Education, in a sense is no different than any other profession in the sense that higher quality professional seek greater compensation. Take away that incentive and you tend to reduce the talent pool.
Yes. Unions protect some undeserving, under achievers. That is a flaw in that system. But they also protect some of the most dedicated people I have met who are working in a system that is continually seeing reductions in budgets and resources, increases in workloads, with no changes in teacher performance expectations.
Lastly, the measuring of a teacher's performance may be obvious with the lowest common denominator slob but past that, there are a lot of variables of which grading is only one, that would need to go into that equation. That complexity is as much a reason, if not a greater one, for resisting mandatory performance based pay, as this nefarious hiding behind the union scenario you lament about.
Taxes are a *****. That's one thing we can all agree on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy
I feel that I must ask you how much on average you have had to pay toward your pension. Here in Kansas my wife just retired from 39 years of teaching in high school, same school, and will get quit a bit more than I have been getting since about 1990 when I started drawing after 28 years of teaching. HOwever, she has been putting in about $150 per month the last 20+ years and I am wondering just how near that you of the union states get to pay in toward your pension.
I know that those teachers in Wisconsin haven't paid much up to now, but they act like they really think the taxpayers owe them some real money just because they are unionized.
The focus on entitlement in these tough fiscal times has brought the scrutiny of many. I think I put in about $250 a month though it has increased with the last two annual contracts. My epmloyer matches that. If so, that's about $90,000 in 30 years for my part (though I am not certain of a 30 year average). We all feel we are owed what we were promised in our contract. When I signed on, I realized I was taking less up front pay than I would have in private industry but that some semblance of equivalence, compensation-wise, was achieved with the deferred aspect of a pension. Funny how no one gave a flying f**k about this when the good times were rolling and many in the private sector were flying high while I putted along. Now we are still putting along, getting pay decreases, furlough days and dodging the bullets of the frustrated general public and standing to lose promised, contractual pay. Should we feel owed to some degree?
I don't know about shortsighted but I do know that NCLB has done far more damage to education than good. My wife has been teaching the past 25 years and says that all the foolish paper work that came with NCLB has done more to make her job tough than the rules that come from the federal government about keeping kids in good states of mind about their self-esteem.
I started teaching in high school in 1958 and can tell you that by 1986 when I left the field there was so much difference that i couldn't believe it. I remember the first two years when I could ask essay questions on history tests and expect nearly every kid to answer with real attempts. In the second year I had a boy who never managed to learn to read enough to read high school textbooks and his mother read every homework assignment to him. He wasn't capable of much but he earned the Ds I gave him and he functioned on his own after he graduated. Today he would have been shunted off to special education long ago and would never have learned anywhere close to what he learned since there was no special ed back then.
The federal government has been putting in too much strings attached money for years and now the states have to go back to paying their own costs. However, they were doing this before I got out and I knew it would result in real losses for education.
My state pension is less than $1000 per month and my wife's will be way over $2,000 but I was in a very weak teacher's retirement system for over 11 years so mine isn't so very good. Kansas is a right to work state so the teachers' union doesn't have so much to do with things as in Cali, Wisc and some of the others
I am sympathetic to your situation and give kudos to dedicated teachers everywhere. I have been fortunate to be associated with many top notch educators that I would gladly entrust my children to.
Education is a challenging thing and a political and fiscal mess. But simply reducing funds toward it is short sighted IMO. And lets face it...that is what is behind the current public sentiment. Straight cost cutting. By doing this, we risk further damage to the potential of our future generations.
I saw a lot of very good things in your links but this seems to me to be the most important part of any of it is to be found in these words.
Belief in the overriding value of students achieving equal educational outcomes.
Belief in questioning the value of individualism.
Belief in the supremacy of the group over the individual.
Belief that advanced students have a duty to help others at the expense of their own needs.
Belief that competition is negative and must be eliminated.
These words say so much about what the left is pushing today that have done so much to cause public education to take a back road for some time. I got out of teaching just in time because I just couldn't see forcing better students to help the others get their work done. That kind of crap has caused many of the poorer ones to be even worse because someone will always have to help them. My wife took it as long as she could stand it and now has just up and quit because of it. I think that many of the lefty prepared people she had to work with had a lot to do with her taking her 39 years of experience with her, also.
It is a complicate mess isn't it? But is the answer simply to cut funding? Heck. That is part of the problem too.
You know darned well that there was no debate over Health Care. Of course, when the Nasty Nancy said that they had to pass it to find out what was in it she was just keeping Republicans from debating it. There was no debate in the Senate after Dirty Harry, Andy Stern, and the other non-Congressmen met to write it in DHs's office behind locked doors.
Do you really not know what debate is? You don't know that there was no debate in committee or on the floor of either house. I really don't believe you know about what happened and how it happened.
I know we won. Get over that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The tendency is to bring it to the public eye and demonize it...
