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Where's the threat coming from? Did GZ come up to TM and push, shove, poke, or anything of the sort? You cannot assault anyone if they keep their distance, ever. If you do, you will pay the price.
WE DON'T KNOW WHO MADE PHYSICAL CONTACT FIRST. It should be clear to everyone, if Zimmerman made physical contact first, he cannot claim self-defense. Zimmerman was the one following and chasing Martin down, if he also grabbed Martin's arm or tackled him or hit Martin first. Case closed. Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter.
The hypothetical we are considering is what if Martin made physical contact first, whether he could rightfully call it self-defense in response to feeling threatened by Mr. Zimmerman following and chasing him. That is a major issue in this case. I say it could rightfully be called self-defense to attack a man who has been following you and chasing you in the night. You say differently. That is all.
Whatever the situation, i just want the factual facts to come out in court. So we can all get on without hearing about this case, every single day.
Whatever that truth may be.
Some of us may not like the whole truth and nothing but the truth, some may be very happy with the outcome.
Whatever it is, lets just accept it.
When a gun is pulled, the typical tactic is to run for cover, not rush a person from afar. Unless TM was suicidal?
We do not know how far away from TM GZ happened to be (except for GZ's version)
From what I understand, he was going back to his car when the confrontation happened. (again, according to GZs version of the story
If I were GZ and knew that I had gotten in over my head, I would try to cover up my actions too. No actually, I think I would just admit that I made a mistake and that it was an accident.
ETA: More than anything I do think that GZ simply made a mistake and was overzealous in his actions, thus the apology. I think trying to make it into self defense will backfire on him. I don't think he is really a racist but he had a bias and a desire to be seen in a law enforcement capacity but couldn't make the police force. He is a frustrated underachiever who carried a gun...not a good combo.
Since the burden of proof is on the state, a witness to tm straddling and punching gz is important. Before you go to the next argument for the state, that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, the same can be said for any witness the state Might have to contradict the story.
Actually, it's the States job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman knowingly or recklessly killed Martin. It's Zimmerman's job to prove that he did it in self-defense.
Not when you are dealing will a possible homocide case. The only way that he could have walked away w/o a consent is if the EMT did not think that it was serious enough to warrant it
Do you have a source for this? I've worked in EMS since I was a kid and I've never heard of such a rule. The only way EMS can force treatment on a person is if the person is clearly incompetent to make a decision. Even if the police arrest someone and drag them to the hospital a competent person can still refuse treatment.
Suits me just fine. Less of the big city types coming down. Keeps NC beautiful, clean, and less metro. Plus, I get my cushy academic job without as much competition. You can stay in broke Kalifornia and I can stay in much more affordable NC with its beautiful beaches, OBX, and the Blue Ridge mountains. The gay marriage ban might just push out even more of my competition. Make lemonade out of lemons I suppose.
Incidentally, the Ph.D.s are homegrown in UNC, NC State and Duke. Thousands and thousands of them.
Y'all not come down here, ya hear?
make sure to post your next scheduled klan meeting on the appropriate forum
You finally answered the question and established some bona fides. See, not so unbelievably hard, was it? I guess you were just so intent on the case and babbling that you couldn't possibly answer a simple question.
By the way, 'knowing' people is worse than useless. It gives a false sense of confidence. I have a friend who is a world-class runner, and that does not make me an expert on elite running, despite my being an avid (amateur) runner. I strongly suspect you know very little indeed about head injuries in practice.
Thanks for the gratuitous insult, by the way! How mature of you. All Georgians thank you.
There had been some break-ins in the neighborhood recently. Zimmerman, as a neighborhood watchman, was on the look out for people he deemed suspicious characters who might be breaking into houses. Martin was walking through the neighborhood to get to his father's girlfriend's house, talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone while high from a joint he recently smoked.
Zimmerman, in his car, sees Martin, figures he looks suspicious, so begins following him. He calls 911 or a non-emergency police number [it has been reported both ways] to report this suspicious person walking through the neighborhood. Zimmerman complains to the 911 operator that these "a**holes" always get away". Martin notices this guy is following him, so to show that he is not intimated, he approaches the car to see what the guy is going to do. Zimmerman does nothing except tells 911 that Martin checked him out.
Martin decides to get out of there, so he leaves walking briskly. He tells his girlfriend that someone is following him. She tells him to run, but he doesn't want to look scared, so he doesn't run, just walks fast. He tells his girlfriend that he thinks he has lost the guy that was following him.
Meanwhile, Zimmerman is determined that this guy is not going to get away like the other "a**holes" who always get away. He starts following Martin again so that he will know where he is when the cops get there. Zimmerman originally told the operator to have the cops meet him near the clubhouse, but now that he is on the move following Martin, he tells the operator to have the cops call him when they get here so that he can tell him where he is.
Zimmerman either loses sight of Martin for a minute, so gets out to look for him, or Martin went somewhere that cars can't go, so Zimmerman got out of his car to find and/or follow Martin.
One thing is crystal clear now to Martin and would be to anyone in his situation, "this guy is after me, and I don't know why, but it can't be good". We will never know for sure what happened next, whether Martin decided to strike first before being struck by Zimmerman, or what. If so, Martin would have been justified. If someone you don't know is chasing you, you are absolutely entitled to strike first. If I were in Martin's situation, even though I could out run him, I would not want him to follow me to my dad's girlfriend's house, because then he'd know where I stay and could come back later and hurt my family. I also wouldn't run because I don't want this guy to think that he scares me, because then every time he sees me in the neighborhood, I'd have to deal with him trying to intimidate me. If I saw that he had a gun, I wouldn't want to run in case that gave him a clear shot of me. No, this is going to end right now. I'd hide behind a bush, then when he walks by, I'd jump him.
Martin doesn't have to run anyway. He can "stand his ground" and defend himself from the crazy guy who is chasing him.
Regardless of how the fight started, at some point, Martin is straddling Zimmerman on the ground, and repeatedly punching him in the face. Neighbors, hearing the scuffle, call 911 to report the incident. During that call, Zimmerman, who is getting his butt kicked, yells out for help. Zimmerman decides no help is coming, so gets a hold of his gun and shoots Martin twice.
Even though Zimmerman was pinned by Martin and getting punched repeatedly, this is not a case of self-defense. Zimmerman started the whole thing by following, then chasing Martin as Martin was obviously trying to get away from him. Zimmerman is responsible for the confrontation. Zimmerman is responsible for pulling the trigger. Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death.
Except...the evidence doesn't back up your scenario. First, according to the 911 call, Martin didn't "walk away fast". The 911 call says "he's running". Shortly after Zimmerman starts running (footsteps and labored breating on the call). He stops when suggested not to by dispatch, and reports "I lost him". He remains on the phone with dispatch for another 1 1/2 minutes.
Slightly different scenario. Zimmerman is "observing and reporting" as a good NW volunteer should. He observes the suspect start running. He exists his vehicle to continue his function of "observing and reporting". He is some distance back and watching M so the police can make contact. As he is well within his rights to do. He stops when advised by dispatch (as supported by the tape). He reports to dispatch that he lost him and continues to talk to the dispatcher for another 1 1/2 minutes. He waits around for a while for the police to show, then starts walking back to his vehicle. (as usual, when help is needed in seconds, the police are minutes away).
Martin knows he has been watched and hears the guy on the phone with dispatch. He takes off running (as reported). He is getting angry that he should be running from someone when he has every right to be there. He gets to the door of his house and stops. He thinks, I have no reason to run, that SOB shouldn't be reporting me to the cops. He watches until Zimmerman hangs up with the police and begins retreating to his car. He then decides to leave his house and approach Zimmerman where he demands (according to his GFs statement) "Why are you following me"? TO which Zimmerman responds "What are you doing here?". After that, a fight starts. Who threw the first punch (the key factor IMO)...we have no idea. Or at least no evidence.
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