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Location: The Land Mass Between NOLA and Mobile, AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw
That scenario is really common in the US now too. Even when a woman makes over six figures, she has NO intention of meeting a man that makes less than her and then requires her to support the household in any way. For women like that - finding a man that earns alot of money is just a ticket for them to take all of the money that they as women make and use it for whatever they want. The down payment and/or cost of admission to the relationship for the guy is to make alot of money and then use all or most of it to sustain the relationship financially, leaving a woman that might make over six figures to do whatever she wants with "her" money. And they think that they are justified in doing things that way.
Show me a woman with an income over six figures and I'll show you a woman that wants the man she is with (that she manipulatively convinced that she "loves") to cover all of the foundational costs of being in a relationship or married to her: mortgage, household expenses, etc. And if the man does make alot of money, it is just a free pass for the woman to do whatever she wants with hers. No woman that makes over six figures (and that is also hot) would ever consider doing anything financially in a relationship that required more of her than she thought she had to invest in the relationship. And that will never change in the US.
Nobody loves anyone anymore. In the US, "relationships" are just twisted, narcissistically-induced games based on preconcieved rigid views often lacking any basis in reality, fueled by stated as well as implied demands and expectations under the guise of a mythical and fantasy based emotion called love that is nothing more than a pyschologically based need for another person to reflect back an image that one party expects another to bounce back like a human mirror that is devoid of any link with reality. The current socio-economic conditions in the US are guaranteed to make every aspect of it worse in the coming years.
And when the relationship is over, due either to both parties growing apart (since intimacy, even fake intimacy) ultimately breeds contempt, and the possibility of other options/lovers exists combined with unrealistic expectations within the relationship not being met. . . . then people get divorced and it is so easy now in society that the ease of which a divorce can be obtained, by default makes any and all "marriages" absoultely meaningless.
Sky-O
This post does not describe my relationship with my SO at all. We both have a good (not great) income, and we both contribute equally.
I have a well paying job and my boyfriend stays home with our daughter and works part-time. I was married to a leech who did not work and I financially supported him.. Until I got sick and tired of being the only one with drive and ambition in the marriage. I dumped him and he went to live with his mom. He was 33 at the time.
You are damn right I wasnt going to stay married to a man who wanted a free ride. He said he wanted to be a stay home dad to the dog. (We had no kids). That was it for me.
I have no problem with my bf staying home with the kid... Because he actually contributes something to the relationship and our 13 month old.
In the past I've had bfs who said they loved my drive and ambition and use that against me at some point. I felt used and I won't tolerate that again. Men shouldn't tolerate women leeches either.
I agree that men shouldn't accept women as leeches either. I could take your scenario and turn it around. Why would a man want to marry a woman who sits home all day, watches soap operas, and if she has kids may drops them off and picks them up every day from school once they are out of pre-school age?
The issue that most people don't take about is since women have entered the workforce the entire value proposition of marriage has changed.
Why would a man want to take the huge financial risk of getting married when in many cases he doesn't get an upgrade in his life in terms of his wife's cooking, housekeeping, or even in some cases parenting skills?
Throw in the fact that most men that are reasonably attractive and make reasonably decent incomes have absolutely no trouble attracting women unless they are just jerks in the personality department.
Basically marriage has become a lifestyle choice. If you want the wife 2.5 kids and the house with the white picket fence then get married. But more and more people feel less compelled to live that lifestyle.
That's doesn't give males the excuse to perpetually extend their adolescence until their early 30's by staying at home and playing video games with no other ambition in life except the next party or next opportunity to get laid. Notice I stated "males" not men. No self respecting man really aspires to be living with "Mommy and Daddy" for an extended period of time as an adult.
The reality is if you can't support yourself on your own without "Mommy and Daddy" then you aren't really an adult, and if you aren't an adult then I don't see how you can call yourself a man.
The reality is if you can't support yourself on your own without "Mommy and Daddy" then you aren't really an adult, and if you aren't an adult then I don't see how you can call yourself a man.
Well, that was part of the old social model - the "shame" factor. This used to hold a lot of power in our society. Now, it doesn't. That's another interesting modern social development.
So, a sample answer to your statement would be something like, "I'm a man because I say I am. What are YOU going to do about it? I don't CARE how YOU define things."
And that's pretty much the end of that particular approach.
What is with all these posts knocking women that have standards(and rightfully should)? It's like it's a sin for a woman that makes a certain amount of money and has certain material wealth to want a man that has the same things. Why would she want to date a man that made much less, or that wasn't interested in the same lifestyle(i.e. obtaining material wealth). And the myth that every woman that makes six figures wants a man that makes the same to spend all his money on her isn't accurate. I know women that make six figures and that is not the case. Yes some of them require that a man make a similar amount but it has nothing to do with that man funding her lifestyle--as she does it on her own. It has to do with wanting to build a life together and wanting to build a "certain" type of life, that would require two "higher" incomes. Also these women don't want to be leeched off of, or to be with men that aren't able to do the same things that they are(activities that cost money that the average joe would not be able to afford in frequency). Yes there are women that expect men to spend all of their money on them, but nowadays there are many women that are fine paying their way, and don't require that a man spend all of his money on her(some but not all). And I don't think it's unrealistic or ridiculous to want a man that is bringing similar things to the table. Maybe the issue is that a lot of men aren't in the position to meet these women expectations, because they don't make six figures and aren't in an occupation where they'll ever make six figures. They get upset when they get turned down and then get angry at women for having standards and wanting more.
Yes at one point in time it was quite normal for a man of higher income to marry and have relationships with women that made significantly less and were in less than desirable occupations. However those men weren't basing their attraction to these women on the women's ability to provide financial security and/or to support a family, there attraction was based on how attractive the woman was, how feminine she was, and her domestic qualities. In contrast women looked for men that could provide financial security and support a family. Though society has changed, there are still certain gender roles that have a significant impact on how women and men look at relationships. Women still believe(on some level) that men should be financially secure, and should be able to take the role of a providers if need be(primarily when kids are involved). Now this is general and of course not every woman is this way. But the notion that women should now think like men and take on the role of providing in the relationship does not rub off well for many women. There are women that are modern and are completely okay with SAHD, househusbands, men that make less, men that make less, etc. But I'd venture that there are many women that just aren't. And it isn't a crime.
I think a lot of men increasingly don't care what women want, and this is creating a new sort of confusion and social tension.
Quote:
What is with all these posts knocking women that have standards(and rightfully should)?
Women are free to have whatever standards they wish. But if fewer and fewer men care to try and meet those standards, they may have to contract to reality.
It's the helicopter-coddling-build-fake-self-esteem dumbass parenting that has been going on for the last 20 years.
Look at the parents in the example. They LET HIM ACT LIKE THIS. And if they tried to pull away and he got mad...well, who set up those expectations?
Kids wouldn't go back home to live if their parents didn't set them up to be failures and if their parents didn't allow it.
Then he'd be forced to MAN UP and take whatever job it takes to pay the bills while he pays his dues.
It would force him to build character. It would teach him responsibility. This dbag couldn't even be responsible for his own scholarship.
You know? Like real adults do?
Its actually all of those things combined that made us arrive at where we are today. There's not a Social Scientist alive today that can pin point one or even a small group of things that contributed to where we are at today.
That scenario is really common in the US now too. Even when a woman makes over six figures, she has NO intention of meeting a man that makes less than her and then requires her to support the household in any way. For women like that - finding a man that earns alot of money is just a ticket for them to take all of the money that they as women make and use it for whatever they want. The down payment and/or cost of admission to the relationship for the guy is to make alot of money and then use all or most of it to sustain the relationship financially, leaving a woman that might make over six figures to do whatever she wants with "her" money. And they think that they are justified in doing things that way.
Show me a woman with an income over six figures and I'll show you a woman that wants the man she is with (that she manipulatively convinced that she "loves") to cover all of the foundational costs of being in a relationship or married to her: mortgage, household expenses, etc. And if the man does make alot of money, it is just a free pass for the woman to do whatever she wants with hers. No woman that makes over six figures (and that is also hot) would ever consider doing anything financially in a relationship that required more of her than she thought she had to invest in the relationship. And that will never change in the US.
Nobody loves anyone anymore. In the US, "relationships" are just twisted, narcissistically-induced games based on preconcieved rigid views often lacking any basis in reality, fueled by stated as well as implied demands and expectations under the guise of a mythical and fantasy based emotion called love that is nothing more than a pyschologically based need for another person to reflect back an image that one party expects another to bounce back like a human mirror that is devoid of any link with reality. The current socio-economic conditions in the US are guaranteed to make every aspect of it worse in the coming years.
And when the relationship is over, due either to both parties growing apart (since intimacy, even fake intimacy) ultimately breeds contempt, and the possibility of other options/lovers exists combined with unrealistic expectations within the relationship not being met. . . . then people get divorced and it is so easy now in society that the ease of which a divorce can be obtained, by default makes any and all "marriages" absoultely meaningless.
Sky-O
It's pretty clear that you've parlaying your own personal bitterness from whatever you went through into an emotional attack against all women and relationships. Sorry for whatever caused you to become so bitter... but you're making some pretty ridiculous generalizations here, and you certainly don't speak for all women.
Sickle cell, speech impediments, and diseases in general have all been around for many many years. It is not what this article is getting at. Of course some people have reasons to live in their parents basement, but most do not. I still have a friend living at home because he can and its cheaper. My brother in law moved into my step moms place at 36 years old. Its just absurd.
Feminism has nothing to do with the down fall of "men" not being able to provide for THEMSELVES. We are talking one person, not two. I agree that we can pass some blame to uncle sams handouts, but that is another story. I also agree that a lonely women deserves what is coming to her, but only in the sense that if she is lonely then she obviously has something wrong with her. Not the entire male gender.
No offense but you don't know "me" at all.. stuttering isn't stuttering...
Why don't you educate yourself on stuttering and speech therapy and get back to me?
You're still throwing out blanket statements and you're way off base.
"Twenge (Generation Me) and Campbell argue that the U.S. is suffering from an epidemic of narcissism, as real and as dangerous as the more widely reported obesity epidemic. Although Christopher Lasch's 1979 bestseller The Culture of Narcissism identified the phenomenon, this book draws on far more extensive research findings to claim that one in 10 Americans in their 20s suffers from narcissistic personality disorder, a psychocultural affliction and unanticipated consequence of the emphasis placed on self-esteem and self-promotion in modern parenting and the media, and fed by Internet social networking sites that reinforce an obsessive need for admiration and ego-enhancement."
So IMHO, many young men are expressing their narcissistic self-absorption one way (inside their controlled, electronic, parent-enabled, "nest"), while narcissistic young women are simply expressing it in other ways, like discovering their new-found opportunities that males may have always taken for granted.... even as increasing numbers of those women are also remaining equally unavailable emotionally ("I need my space, career, freedom, control, and independence, and BTW, I already have my dog(s), gal pals, sister, mom, etc. that all come as part of the "package".... oh, and I also have very high standards, as indicated on my internet dating profile.")!
i read it very good article. the kidult dilemma. the parents do it to them but kids are free to break away and grow up.
its a kidult's right to be free from paternalism. im a boomer. our parents cut us loose at 18. how sad this current generation sees that tradition as not part of parenting. pal parenting is not working.
Im an Xer and me and most everone I went to highschool and college with were out at 18 or 19 depending on whether we went to college locally. Its only over the last 10 years that I have seen so many mid 20 year olds still at home. Military vets excluded since I know A few that came back from the middle east that moved back in with their folks while attending school or regrouping.
On the other hand there are plenty of societies that multigenerations living together and nothing is thought of it. Its not like were all going to hell if we live with mom and dad forever! It also makes good economic sense.
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