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do you consider men living at home and mooching off their parents to be a problem that should be blamed on someone?
Internet people notwithstanding, I don't think men at-large are blaming their lack of success on women -- I think men are redefining what constitutes "success."
Someone who can't support themselves is a little extreme -- but I think the point is that more and more men are seeking a lifestyle with minimal obligations or committments, and that freedom constitutes "success."
I can definitely agree with most of this. I think it's fine that a man sits and home and mooches off his parents... but if he doesn't get any attention from women it's not necessarily the woman's fault.
My bare minimums are 'supports himself, has a car (I honestly don't care about the make or model, but I live in a place with horrible public transportation and it really is a necessity) and doesn't do drugs (that includes smoking weed). I'm a gamer, so I don't look down on playing necessarily, but it shouldn't interfere with obligations. I've known 3 men who have been fired from their jobs because of WoW.
This shouldn't be difficult to find, but for me it's been absolutely impossible.
It ain't black men? Ha ha, surely you jest. I think we men have it pretty good b/c in general, we have more of the type of intelligence that is rewarded by the marketplace, namely math and science. And if we don't, we're more likely to have the inborn traits to work in the skilled trades. For women, if they don't possess the natural intelligence and/or family background to graduate from college and/or graduate school, they don't have many options.
This is all in general, I realize many women have the traits to work in skilled trades and women are not far behind on average in terms of math and science intelligence. It's just that it's more likely that a man will be in the top 10-20% in math/science than a woman. Career success is much easier if you're very good at math and/or science.
The trades can be very difficult to break into as a woman, especially when they're VERY male dominated. I've been given hell being in a nearly all male trade and I can definitely see where many women wouldn't be able to handle it emotionally. My chosen trade has destroyed my self esteem, ruined my trust of men and lessened my change of finding someone and getting married/having a family to almost nothing. Know a lot of women who would go through all of that for a career?
Plus, most of the trades simply don't pay as much. I could have gone to college and received a finance degree and probably be making a ton of money. Instead, I went into mechanics and probably won't top 60k a year working my butt off in horrible weather and being on call 24/7. Again, not many people would chose this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGuy2.5
Sickle cell, speech impediments, and diseases in general have all been around for many many years. It is not what this article is getting at. Of course some people have reasons to live in their parents basement, but most do not. I still have a friend living at home because he can and its cheaper. My brother in law moved into my step moms place at 36 years old. Its just absurd.
Feminism has nothing to do with the down fall of "men" not being able to provide for THEMSELVES. We are talking one person, not two. I agree that we can pass some blame to uncle sams handouts, but that is another story. I also agree that a lonely women deserves what is coming to her, but only in the sense that if she is lonely then she obviously has something wrong with her. Not the entire male gender.
I have a serious genetic condition that requires constant monitoring and IV medication every 2 weeks for life. I'm in pain a lot of the time and yet I still managed to get my life in order. Having a medical disorder isn't really an excuse for sitting at home and doing nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiphead
*whip crack*
As a man, you women don't want these things either. If a man is successful, enjoys things like cars, hiking, biking, shopping, and lives out on his own, but unfortunately, is a little awkward, shy, polite, etc. He gets stomped on.
This post is exactly why I married my wife. A lot of the women I dated before her were just like this. Yikes..
As far as the article, I don't know what's up with the 2nd poster. But the article is really hard to read with all the woman boosting features and the self advertising manner. I don't know how many times I would read "so and so from this of this so and so.
The awkward nerdy guy is basically what I want. I've dated a few in the past, but none of them went past date 2 and it was all on THEIR terms. Even the awkward, shy, polite guy gets picky and turns people down... I know I've been turned down by many of them.
I read the thread and the article and just sat here thinking about it for a while.
I was married to a man/boy for almost 40 years. He died this past January and I loved him. Even though I loved him I have to admit the biggest overarching characteristic that defined his life was LAZINESS. He always did as little as possible. Only enough to get by.
Was H ahead of his time? Probably not. He was the willing victim of a manipulating evil witch of a mother and a father who was completely cowed by her. He also had an evil half brother. I said willing victim because adults can change, he just chose to accept who he was raised to be. He was too lazy to change. But the end result was the same and if he was here today, he would tell you he should have changed. Living a whole life as a man/boy wasn't much of an existence. It's interesting to think about what made him who he was well before today's scary phenomenon of the man/boy. Not all that different. Weak man, strong woman.
Porn? Check. Much easier than having to work on a relationship with a real person.
Video Games? Check. You can maim and kill with no consequences. Do manly things in a fantasy world. While you are sitting in an easy chair. And you can have a do-over whenever you make a mistake. No real people you have to interact with. No real risk.
School? Check. But the only reason he made it was because I pushed him. I paid for it and did a heap of the work for him. As a matter of fact, I paid for most everything. I usually made more than him and I was never unemployed until after I retired. He was often unemployed or forced to work contract because he was lazy and never did more than he absolutely had to.
Oral Sex? Check. It was the only sex he really enjoyed. Why? Because he didn't have to do anything or invest anything emotionally.
Marriage? Check. He married me when his parents told him to get out in the real world. He was looking for another caretaker and he found one. Me.
It's a mistake to go through life too shallow and lazy to be truly interested and devoted to...nothing. Sad!
Well, at least he found a good wife. Who was willing to stay with him for 40 years, no less! Something many of today's young men never will.
isnt part of someones personality whether they are a slacker or not? Would you consider a garbage man a slacker because he doesnt have a high powered job but works hard doing what he does?
The short answer to your question is no, I do not believe a garbage collector is necessarily a slacker.
The long answer to your question goes something like this...
Assortative mating patterns made it very unlikely that a garbage collector would have been in my dating pool at all. I grew up in an upper-middle class professional neighborhood with a top-notch school district that sent more than 90% of its graduates onto university. These people were my potential mates, and a slacker in that environment was a "boy" like those featured in the article. I had absolutely no interest in them.
The man I eventually married lived on his own beginning at age 18; paid his tuition and other expenses by working 40-hours per week in a job related to his future field; and spent his weekends studying, not partying or playing video games. He had both an excellent work ethic and ambition. It was an intoxicating combination. Still is.
Last edited by randomparent; 07-13-2012 at 02:30 PM..
I glanced at the article and wasn't impressed. Just the same old man-bashing stuff that rears it's head every so often.
It's acceptable to bash men because there are generally no pro-men's groups to protest such things. You rarely see articles and studies that bash lazy, shiftless women, of which there are plenty.
What about the women who produce child after child after child and who are being supported not by their own families, such as the men in the article, but rather by John/Jane Q. Taxpayer? Yes, we the people are supporting these women and their offspring, and many of these women are spending their days playing video games, endlessly texting and talking to their friends, watching TV, etc.
Everybody knows such women. Every piddling town and metropolis is full of them. However, our PC society rarely labels them deadbeats or freeloaders. When a woman becomes pregnant, it's always the man's fault. "Deadbeat Dads" became a common phrase which is still used but we never heard any terms such as "Freeloading Moms". Heaven forbid. The women's groups would have been screaming something fierce. Such women were victims! They needed protection and support, not judgement! The government, composed of politicians craving the women's vote, complied.
At least that man living in his parents basement and playing video games isn't a drain on taxpayers. He likely won't even reproduce his worthless genes as, judging by this article, no woman would want him.
I glanced at the article and wasn't impressed. Just the same old man-bashing stuff that rears it's head every so often.
It's acceptable to bash men because there are generally no pro-men's groups to protest such things. You rarely see articles and studies that bash lazy, shiftless women, of which there are plenty.
What about the women who produce child after child after child and who are being supported not by their own families, such as the men in the article, but rather by John/Jane Q. Taxpayer? Yes, we the people are supporting these women and their offspring, and many of these women are spending their days playing video games, endlessly texting and talking to their friends, watching TV, etc.
Everybody knows such women. Every piddling town and metropolis is full of them. However, our PC society rarely labels them deadbeats or freeloaders. When a woman becomes pregnant, it's always the man's fault. "Deadbeat Dads" became a common phrase which is still used but we never heard any terms such as "Freeloading Moms". Heaven forbid. The women's groups would have been screaming something fierce. Such women were victims! They needed protection and support, not judgement! The government, composed of politicians craving the women's vote, complied.
At least that man living in his parents basement and playing video games isn't a drain on taxpayers. He likely won't even reproduce his worthless genes as, judging by this article, no woman would want him.
Well, since a woman can't procreate by herself...
Any parent who doesn't support a child they create is a deadbeat, IMO. You don't often hear of the man who impregnates multiple women and has to shoulder the burden of childcare expense alone and time spent raising those kids. It always seems to fall to the woman to carry that load simply because she gave birth. It does frustrate me that people who can barely afford to care for themselves keep popping out kids, but it's not just the woman's fault she got pregnant.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,753,896 times
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Been itching to respond to this all day, as a 24 yr old male who recently graduated college.
As a class of 2012 grad, I can safely say it is not easy for young men today to get jobs that actually pay enough to support themselves even without debt. I myself was able to hook a $35k job (which ain't much in the DC area) within a month of graduating college because I mainly reached out to a prior employer who I left on good terms two years ago. In my job search I sent nearly 400 applications and got 3 calls. I have a Bachelor of Science in Business Management while not an elite degree not a throwaway degree like Gender Studies.
Now I didn't move out of my mother's house until age 23. The only reason I was able to move out was because I had a FT job which paid a livable wage of $12 an hour and I was living in Louisville, KY which has a very low COL. Good jobs were not easy to find there. It is not easy for young men in most sections of the country to find even part-time jobs to support themselves. If you gave all of my male under 30 friends the choice they'd live by themselves and able to support themselves but some of them can't do that because of employment issues.
Now for some of the issues raised in the article.
Porn: Again if you gave my friends the choice they'd go with a real woman to have sex with but some can't get that so they turn to porn. Our sex drive has to be handled of satisfied somehow. I don't watch porn myself but I don't think young men should be shamed for watching porn provided they are still able to differentiate between reality and fake in love.
Relationships: Naturally some of us young men, with the problems of economics don't feel we can give the women the things they need, so we drop out of commitment because we can't do our part financially. Also "men just want sex" is not entirely truthful, yes some of us (like myself) want easy sex but deep down we also want a woman who will knock our socks off. A lot of men will not admit that they want to commit to a women who is the and a bag of chips but deep down we want that.
Video games: I don't get why women do not like men playing video games. Honestly video games are some of the best stress relief you can get. Let's say I have a real hard day at work and I want to hit someone. Would women rather me hit the Xbox 360 and take my aggression out on fake characters in a game like GTA or NCAA Football or the first person I see in real life. How are video games any different than movies or books? Both allow you to escape reality for a time, and let's face it reality may be more than we can handle at one time and dissipating some of that on a video game console may help us handle it.
Living at home: Okay let's say the only job you can get is a $9 an hour position and you live in Washington DC. You are telling me that if someone's parents are willing to offer their home in exchange for a small percentage of their check or help around the house, you would rather a guy have the $800 a month he is bring home go entirely go towards rent and still be $200 short of rent? Once again, most young men who are living with their parents do so out of necessity and survival not choice.
I think if people would spend their time getting the economy straight instead of shaming young men who through mostly no fault of their own got screwed by the economy, young men would correct themselves by themselves.
Another man shaming "grow up" article, someone's either missing the mark or getting desperate. Figures they attack men and videogames, and living with their parents. Jeez, its not like women get addicted to Farmville, Facebook, Daytime TV, etc right? Many wives I've met are co-dependent as hell, almost Peg Bundy status and I don't mean to attack another gender but stating an observation.
I get it there are true lazy ones who game all day and night, no job, dependent as hell... they need help, or tough love. If they're talking about 3 solid hours after other responsibilities are done instead of spending that time with her DESPITE doing that all day she needs to get a hobby. Videogames are a hobby, just like watching sports, movies, or tinkering with a carburetor.
The living with parents thing? If he's a no good mooch, yeah there's a problem. However USA isn't exactly booming with well paying careers at the moment. College is expensive and doesn't guarantee success in this world of networking and nepotism. Some guys are smart enough not to go into debt on a false promise, wish I had that foresight. I certainly don't have that luxury of living with my parents, not that I wanted to. If they were still alive I'd be the one taking care of them with very little time to myself and a future. It was pretty much like that the years my mom went downhill. No one saw it as "He's taking care of her in her golden years" but rather "What a loser living with mommy!" I had to pay for her meds and what not... I see articles like these and comments like that making me want to rage and correct the morons who think otherwise. All my living relatives are co-dependent deadbeats, thankfully just a few months ago we've went our separate ways.
Remember the days it used to be noble for a man to take a trade? Well, our society now turns their nose up at a man who can fix your AC, plumbing, car, bathroom wall because he's not a flashy suit behind a desk or risking his life in a uniform (who still makes less than a flashy suit) So yeah, my generation and the current don't bother with these at our younger years because it was instilled we'd be losers. So during the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas and skilled trades going to immigrants what does that leave the men? Our tries at the dating circuit tells us that women don't really respect you if you're not making more than she does. So, there goes the motivation to succeed if we wanted to marry young.
Its not that its always laziness, but we're realizing that life is far too short to be chained to a miserable job, or working insane hours for that big salary while we COULD be spending more time at home. Women get to quit work anytime they want for kids or to pursue leisurely activities without much criticism (except for the stuck up workaholics) If wanting to enjoy life with the same privileges like women make us man/boys then so be it.
I'm at least smart enough to know that I'd be a fool to settle down in the state I'm in now, I don't blame anyone but myself. Yes, I've been rejected and shamed a TON by the opposite sex but things are turning around so fast since I've turned 30 and regained my independence I don't know what to do, getting once in a while random contacts from women old and new. So tell me, what do I get when I become so financially well off? The dating pool isn't exactly ripe with level headed ladies with no divorce/kids still seeking someone. Is my only role in society is just a walking, willing ATM with a well paying career, house, car, 401k, etc? Is it really my role as a man to offer high value material gains to some vanity queen who feels entitled to it in some expensive gamble to procreate and live happily ever after? If that's the bottom line then I have some news for you:
ITS SEXIST. A man claiming sexist? Heresy? Choke on that!
Another man shaming "grow up" article, someone's either missing the mark or getting desperate. Figures they attack men and videogames, and living with their parents. Jeez, its not like women get addicted to Farmville, Facebook, Daytime TV, etc right? Many wives I've met are co-dependent as hell, almost Peg Bundy status and I don't mean to attack another gender but stating an observation.
I get it there are true lazy ones who game all day and night, no job, dependent as hell... they need help, or tough love. If they're talking about 3 solid hours after other responsibilities are done instead of spending that time with her DESPITE doing that all day she needs to get a hobby. Videogames are a hobby, just like watching sports, movies, or tinkering with a carburetor.
The living with parents thing? If he's a no good mooch, yeah there's a problem. However USA isn't exactly booming with well paying careers at the moment. College is expensive and doesn't guarantee success in this world of networking and nepotism. Some guys are smart enough not to go into debt on a false promise, wish I had that foresight. I certainly don't have that luxury of living with my parents, not that I wanted to. If they were still alive I'd be the one taking care of them with very little time to myself and a future. It was pretty much like that the years my mom went downhill. No one saw it as "He's taking care of her in her golden years" but rather "What a loser living with mommy!" I had to pay for her meds and what not... I see articles like these and comments like that making me want to rage and correct the morons who think otherwise. All my living relatives are co-dependent deadbeats, thankfully just a few months ago we've went our separate ways.
Remember the days it used to be noble for a man to take a trade? Well, our society now turns their nose up at a man who can fix your AC, plumbing, car, bathroom wall because he's not a flashy suit behind a desk or risking his life in a uniform (who still makes less than a flashy suit) So yeah, my generation and the current don't bother with these at our younger years because it was instilled we'd be losers. So during the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas and skilled trades going to immigrants what does that leave the men? Our tries at the dating circuit tells us that women don't really respect you if you're not making more than she does. So, there goes the motivation to succeed if we wanted to marry young.
Its not that its always laziness, but we're realizing that life is far too short to be chained to a miserable job, or working insane hours for that big salary while we COULD be spending more time at home. Women get to quit work anytime they want for kids or to pursue leisurely activities without much criticism (except for the stuck up workaholics) If wanting to enjoy life with the same privileges like women make us man/boys then so be it.
I'm at least smart enough to know that I'd be a fool to settle down in the state I'm in now, I don't blame anyone but myself. Yes, I've been rejected and shamed a TON by the opposite sex but things are turning around so fast since I've turned 30 and regained my independence I don't know what to do, getting once in a while random contacts from women old and new. So tell me, what do I get when I become so financially well off? The dating pool isn't exactly ripe with level headed ladies with no divorce/kids still seeking someone. Is my only role in society is just a walking, willing ATM with a well paying career, house, car, 401k, etc? Is it really my role as a man to offer high value material gains to some vanity queen who feels entitled to it in some expensive gamble to procreate and live happily ever after? If that's the bottom line then I have some news for you:
ITS SEXIST. A man claiming sexist? Heresy? Choke on that!
Amen, Crackpot.
I've read the article and the whole thread and have been thinking of what to say, or which post do defend myself against. Instead, I'll just quote yours, +1'it, and move on to the next.
That was actually an interesting read, thanks for the link. Some oversimplification happening, of course, but some well-made points as well. Masculinity has become a really ill-defined concept in modern Western society. To me, it has to have something to do with taking on responsibilities and then living up to them.
I do at times scratch my head in wonder at those (men and women both) who seem to take no pride in independence. That has to be the lowest rung on the ladder of adulthood - how can you shoulder any responsibility if you can't even keep your own kit together? Sure, you may slide back and need help, or fate may place you in a situation where it's just not possible - but it should bloody well be what you strive for.
I did like the final definition: "Real men stand up for the weak and disempowered." I can live with that.
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and a bag of chips but deep down we want that. 
