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And maybe some of us black women would never want to be like Michelle Obama, I know I wouldn't I think she is no one to look up to or someone I would want to take advise from.
Understandable...
But there are many who do look up to her. And if she got her feet wet and put in a good faith effort to help out black females, I think you would view her in a slightly more favorable light.
But she didn't - which kind of underscores who she is and why you don't view her favorably.
It is important BECAUSE the of demographic of women the OP is talking about.
There have been various posters on here who have agreed that in order to relate to someone you have to be able to speak their lingo. Its not about you being a fan of his music.
That's why I have such respect for calipoppy. She is older, educated and very positive thinking imo HOWEVER she can also talk realistically about the things going on within the black community. She has previously addressed the issue of how easily young black girls overlooked the incident and how they forgave him for it.
When that incident broke young black girls were his biggest defenders. Young black girls who are having babies. Young black girls who listen to Lil Wayne and view him as some sort of pinnacle of black men.
How do you talk to those girls if you have no idea AND YOU DON'T CARE about the things they care about? You're lying to yourself if you think that demographic is at home watching the discovery channel and reading Tolstoy. No they are listening to Lil Wayne. Following Chris Brown on Twitter. Watching TI & Toya on tv.
You have NO idea how relevant these celebs are to these girls. They make comments like "I would have took that charge for my man, espeically if he was fine like TI". They see NOTHING wrong with Lil Wayne having two women pregnant at the same time. They worship Love & Hip Hop and Basketball Wives.
So you cannot want to help that demographic but then ignore all of those factors. Unless by helping you mean starting an online conversation with a handful of black women.
Want to start off with the fact that 70% of black children are not only being raised by black women, many of the children born OOW have fathers either in their homes or who are active participants in their rearing and I do feel that this post further contributes to the myth that all black children born OOW have fathers who abandoned them. The fact remains that black fathers do co-habit with the mothers of their children, yet don't marry, those that don't co-habit have higher visitation rates and rates of paying child support than both hispanic and white men.
I have provided information to the OP before about this, but she does not believe it.
One study found that only 37 percent of black nonmarital fathers lived with their children, “but of those who weren’t cohabiting, 44 percent of unmarried black fathers were visiting the child, compared to only 17 percent of white and 26 percent of Hispanic fathers. These studies also suggested that black nonresident fathers tend to maintain their level of involvement over time longer than do white and Hispanic nonresident fathers.”
That involvement goes beyond a support check.
That means spending quality time with their children and doing their best to protect them physically, of course, but also emotionally.
In regards to marriage and the OPs urge to help raise marriage statistics amongst black women, I think it is a noble thing. But I also wanted to mention that currently over 50% of black women are married, something that is also usually not discussed in threads like this. Black women usually marry at a later age than other women and many of those women who have OOW births with the first child, end up marrying while their children or still young and have other children in wedlock, which is evidenced by the creator of NWNW spoken about in the OP.
I also don't understand how the OP did not know about organizations that target black people to encourage them to marry. I don't consider myself to be a part of the "black collective" but I had already heard of NWNW I have been in audiences where people gave lectures for their organizations regarding the need to encourage marriage amongst black women. Most of them were on the campus of my HBCU, which has a higher amount of black women versus black men (most HBCUs do). So this is not something unfamiliar for me and I find it interesting that the OP does not know about local or web based organizations that promote marriage amongst black parents.
That said, I will chime in that marriage across the board for all Americans and most technologically advanced, first world countries, is on the decline.
I feel it has more to do with women not feeling they need to have the title of "wife" to be happy. Like I stated, I am very much an individualist and I moreso see myself as a part of the "global community" versus the "black community" even though I live in a predominately black neighborhood in a predominately black city in a predominately black state. Black is not my primary identity and if people didn't feel the need to tell me about being black, I probably would never speak of my blackness.
I don't think that OOW births are the primary reasons for negative statistics amongst black people in our country. I feel that education is more of a pressing need for our young mothers and their children - education is the key, not so much marriage IMO. I admit though that I do not have a high regard for being married, even though I am married. I don't see that as something I need to do to raise productive children and I think that my view and the women who have similar views as mine are ideologies that the OP things is destructive to our youth. Yet, I am middle income, like European women who have had children OOW, I am an atheist, I am highly educated, I make a good income and my kids go to great schools. Honestly I see religion as more of a problem with black people in this country than OOW births, but I won't go into that in this thread right now.
I see the whole "OOW black kids do worse than those born in wedlock" as ridiculous actually and feel that it depends on the educational level of the parents, whether or not the father is involved in the lives of his child(ren). For instance, I had my oldest child OOW, his father (my husband) and I were together for 2 years by the time he was born. Six years later we had another child, but got married before I got pregnant with her. Both of them have grown up with both parents and basically will have the same degree of parental involvement and IMO my son (who is a brilliant, wonderful young man I might add, whom I expect great things out of) is not and did not start off his life on a negative due to me not being married to his dad. We both raised him, same as my daughter, we both loved him, same as our daughter, so his experience as an OOW child is not something I see as having a detrimental effect on his life.
Also, I feel that divorce is a reason why a lot of people don't get married currently. The divorce rate is sky high in our country across all demographics and children of divorce have statistics that are comparable to those born OOW. Many young women who I have met and older women I know who had kids OOW feel that there is no purpose marrying a "baby daddy" when they know that that relationship is not going to last.
But I do think it is admirable that the OP wants to tackle a problem she sees as plaguing black children. I chose education and do a lot in regards to tutoring with various organizations and other education programs. It is always good to help our fellow man. [MOD CUT/off topic]
the amount of group think in the African American community is bizarre. Need more diversity of thought and experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryMary2012
Far too many black people do away with their individualism, in favor of the collective. This wouldn't be so bad if the collective 'group-think,' were based on overall positive elements, but the sad truth is, this is not the case. Generally speaking, more blacks need to move away from trying to define what the authentic black experience is. In reality, we are individuals, not a collective block that all share the same identity, culture or values.
When I pointed out the dysfunctional elements that need to be eliminated and mentioned that I hadn't heard of the 'entertainers' featured in the video posted by Calipoppy, some suggested that:
I am out of touch with reality,
I couldn't possibly be a young black woman, because surely EVERY young black woman knows who Chris Brown is and should be well versed in the latest pop culture,
I know nothing about the topic at hand (and even worst, since my husband is white I can't relate), therefore, I have no right to discuss black women mobilizing to stop the 'baby mama' epidemic.
These basic assumptions actually explain why a number of black people are trapped. They pander to these crazy dysfunctional notions of black identity, but become upset when non blacks view them as a monolithic group. Again, the collective 'group-think,' wouldn't be such a bad thing if positive behaviors were encouraged, but the sad truth is, the black identity in America is largely defined by negative dysfunctional elements, because there aren't any dissenting voices (on a mass level) who are able to successfully challenge the largely negative black American 'sub' culture.
On a regular basis, we hear the opinions of the 'baby mamas & baby daddies/dead-beats,' criminals/thugs, underachievers, and my personal fav, --the enablers. Enablers tend to encourage and support negative behavior. They are masters at creating excuses and diverting attention away from the crux of the issue. When this group hears a dissenting opinion that challenges their lifestyle, or doesn't fall in line with their notion of what the 'collective black viewpoint' should be, they work their magic to drown out any and all of the counter arguments to ensure that no other voices are heard. They do this by questioning the 'blackness' of the person with the dissenting viewpoint. Often, the subculture will draw attention to the person's middle class standing, or academic crentials as evidence that they are just too far removed from the 'community,' to be of any use. If this fails, the enablers try to subvert attention away from the black subculture, by highlighting non blacks who engage in similar pathological tendencies. -And if this tactic fails, they will exclaim that the challenger is filled with self hate, and simply doesn't know black history, otherwise, they would understand. The collective voices from the subculture know that all of these tools are very effective, because it diverts attention away from the actual issue.
A poster asked, why doesn't Michelle Obama take on this issue, and was informed that it would be dangerous, because whites would view her as pandering to blacks. But the truth is, the real danger would result from her voicing a dissenting view that's counter to what's been accepted and normalized by many who reside in the black American sub culture. But, the AA subculture has nothing to worry about. They have true 'friends' in the white house, who will ensure that this topic, or any other productive discourse focused on re-establishing family values are never seriously discussed on a national level.
This is why I suggested that married & 'marriage minded' black women (and other supporters) must lead the way. I visited Christelyn Karazin's, No Wedding No Womb website and I'm not surprised that it hasn't been updated since 2011. Interestingly, her other site link, Beyond Black & White, seems to be very active and thriving. -By all accounts, much of her current online efforts appear to focus on encouraging middle class black women to explore relationships with men from different races and cultures, as evidenced by her video:
and new book entitled, Swirling. Surely, she figured out the 'dangers' associated w/ presenting dissenting viewpoints which directly challenge the black sub culture. I think it's safe to say that she has moved on... By all accounts, the black sub culture's voice prevails, yet again!
It is important BECAUSE the of demographic of women the OP is talking about.
There have been various posters on here who have agreed that in order to relate to someone you have to be able to speak their lingo. Its not about you being a fan of his music.
That's why I have such respect for calipoppy. She is older, educated and very positive thinking imo HOWEVER she can also talk realistically about the things going on within the black community. She has previously addressed the issue of how easily young black girls overlooked the incident and how they forgave him for it.
When that incident broke young black girls were his biggest defenders. Young black girls who are having babies. Young black girls who listen to Lil Wayne and view him as some sort of pinnacle of black men.
How do you talk to those girls if you have no idea AND YOU DON'T CARE about the things they care about? You're lying to yourself if you think that demographic is at home watching the discovery channel and reading Tolstoy. No they are listening to Lil Wayne. Following Chris Brown on Twitter. Watching TI & Toya on tv.
You have NO idea how relevant these celebs are to these girls. They make comments like "I would have took that charge for my man, espeically if he was fine like TI". They see NOTHING wrong with Lil Wayne having two women pregnant at the same time. They worship Love & Hip Hop and Basketball Wives.
So you cannot want to help that demographic but then ignore all of those factors. Unless by helping you mean starting an online conversation with a handful of black women.
That's all fine - and having common interest helps relationships - no doubt. But to respond by discrediting her blackness is counter-productive.
Whatever you may think - MaryMary has been positive in her approach. Even though she may not have known about CBrown, he can be learned about if she considers it necessary. Instead of challenging her blackness, why not encourage her to find out who he is if she wants to help?
"Dangerous" to touch on single motherhhood? Racist about showing favoritism to black people? You know, there is a way to touch on things like this without being racist. She's a black female - she should be favoring black females to some extent. Stuff becomes racist when white people are blamed. Leave the white people out of it. The other thing is that you can't control what others think - and there will always be someone claiming racism even though that may not be the intent.
The red above is funny because it is the exact opposite of what's happening on this thread - because MaryMary focused on black females, and you have got people complaining because she is singling out the blacks without acknowledging this goes on with whites also. The point? The will always be people who are complainers and faultfinders. Gotta move on past those people.
The blue above... it's a shame that Michelle is not an asset for this issue. I believe the Obamas have wasted a huge opportunity to help the black community. The position that they are in could have changed the destiny of black people for generations. Why would black females think they could never be like her? Maybe because she hasn't told them - or demonstrated that to them. Maybe because she hasn't gotten her hands dirty and positioned herself (or her people) within the ghettos and displayed a commitment for the cause.
Mary J Blige is important because she has been there. She got her hands dirty because she was on the inside in the past. But people on the outside can also have influence they are willing to get their hands dirty and show that they are really for the cause. The Obamas have not done that for the black community.
Just to be clear because I know how some of you are - I am not blaming Michelle for the current status of anything in the black community. I am highlighting the lack of involvement in making us better since someone else brought it up. That's all.
On a personal level I agree with much of what you're saying but from an objective level I don't see it working.
I'm on my phone so I'll try to answer your questions as I remember them. Why would black females think could never be like Michelle Obama? Because they've been told they can't all their lives. By their parents, grandparents, siblings, boyfriends, friends, teachers, everyone. Yes some people are internally strong enough to rise above it but in my personal experience most don't. No one around them has anything or does anything. That Michelle Obama life is a fantasy one...you might as well tell them they will ride in a pumpkin. One girl I work with has a mother who put her on birth control at age 12 because she KNEW her daughter would end up getting pregnant...who tells a 12 year old that?
So IMO its hard for Michelle to come in and have an impact on them. She might spark something in one but as soon as she gets home back to her reality and others sense that she is trying to do better for herself they will attack her spirit. I have seen it first hand happen "Oh she think she gone go to college cause she reading a book. You ain't going nowhere...you too stupid to go to any college." And those comments don't come from other kids...they come from the parents.
This is yet ANOTHER reason why knowing the entertainers they like is important. If you watch the behind the scenes stories of most of the black entertainers that appeal to that age group they had ROUGH lives. Drugs, abusive parents, absent fathers, molestation, etc and they used music/sports/acting as their way to get out. You rarely see these bad childhoods from lawyers, doctors, professors, engineers. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I've had some wonderful guest speakers but it's not what they're seeing. So its not their reality. That is why they would look up to MJB vs Michelle Obama because they say "she went through what I went through and she made it." when they look at Michelle they see someone who was way ahead of them before the race even started.
I hope what I'm trying to convey makes sense. I am personally very vested in this demographic so it pisses me off to no end to see other black people talk about it so superficially.
As far as Michelle and why I think it's dangerous; people have been trying to prove they are racist from day one. Her doing something specific within the black community would spark all kinds of issues that may end up doing more harm than good.
Want to start off with the fact that 70% of black children are not only being raised by black women, many of the children born OOW have fathers either in their homes or who are active participants in their rearing and I do feel that this post further contributes to the myth that all black children born OOW have fathers who abandoned them. The fact remains that black fathers do co-habit with the mothers of their children, yet don't marry, those that don't co-habit have higher visitation rates and rates of paying child support than both hispanic and white men.
I have provided information to the OP before about this, but she does not believe it.
In regards to marriage and the OPs urge to help raise marriage statistics amongst black women, I think it is a noble thing. But I also wanted to mention that currently over 50% of black women are married, something that is also usually not discussed in threads like this. Black women usually marry at a later age than other women and many of those women who have OOW births with the first child, end up marrying while their children or still young and have other children in wedlock, which is evidenced by the creator of NWNW spoken about in the OP.
I also don't understand how the OP did not know about organizations that target black people to encourage them to marry. I don't consider myself to be a part of the "black collective" but I had already heard of NWNW I have been in audiences where people gave lectures for their organizations regarding the need to encourage marriage amongst black women. Most of them were on the campus of my HBCU, which has a higher amount of black women versus black men (most HBCUs do). So this is not something unfamiliar for me and I find it interesting that the OP does not know about local or web based organizations that promote marriage amongst black parents.
That said, I will chime in that marriage across the board for all Americans and most technologically advanced, first world countries, is on the decline.
I feel it has more to do with women not feeling they need to have the title of "wife" to be happy. Like I stated, I am very much an individualist and I moreso see myself as a part of the "global community" versus the "black community" even though I live in a predominately black neighborhood in a predominately black city in a predominately black state. Black is not my primary identity and if people didn't feel the need to tell me about being black, I probably would never speak of my blackness.
I don't think that OOW births are the primary reasons for negative statistics amongst black people in our country. I feel that education is more of a pressing need for our young mothers and their children - education is the key, not so much marriage IMO. I admit though that I do not have a high regard for being married, even though I am married. I don't see that as something I need to do to raise productive children and I think that my view and the women who have similar views as mine are ideologies that the OP things is destructive to our youth. Yet, I am middle income, like European women who have had children OOW, I am an atheist, I am highly educated, I make a good income and my kids go to great schools. Honestly I see religion as more of a problem with black people in this country than OOW births, but I won't go into that in this thread right now.
I see the whole "OOW black kids do worse than those born in wedlock" as ridiculous actually and feel that it depends on the educational level of the parents, whether or not the father is involved in the lives of his child(ren). For instance, I had my oldest child OOW, his father (my husband) and I were together for 2 years by the time he was born. Six years later we had another child, but got married before I got pregnant with her. Both of them have grown up with both parents and basically will have the same degree of parental involvement and IMO my son (who is a brilliant, wonderful young man I might add, whom I expect great things out of) is not and did not start off his life on a negative due to me not being married to his dad. We both raised him, same as my daughter, we both loved him, same as our daughter, so his experience as an OOW child is not something I see as having a detrimental effect on his life.
Also, I feel that divorce is a reason why a lot of people don't get married currently. The divorce rate is sky high in our country across all demographics and children of divorce have statistics that are comparable to those born OOW. Many young women who I have met and older women I know who had kids OOW feel that there is no purpose marrying a "baby daddy" when they know that that relationship is not going to last.
But I do think it is admirable that the OP wants to tackle a problem she sees as plaguing black children. I chose education and do a lot in regards to tutoring with various organizations and other education programs. It is always good to help our fellow man. I would like to combat the poison of religion, but I know that that wouldn't go so well, so I don't go there since people are entrenched in their faith and I have an opinion about that similar to how the OP views black people being accepting of OOW births.
And FWIW, I don't think a white husband has anything to do with the topic at hand. Even though I know from another thread that the OPer looks unfavorably on black husbands/fathers in general and thinks they are, basically horible people from what I got from the other threads and I think that that is too bad that she has a view like that since I see is as based in ignorance but lots of people have ignorant opinions IMO.
Eventually you'll just leave the born what your saying will have no effect on other people around since many seem to have their own agenda and seem to close their ears from what they don't seem is correct. Your post is very on point but while education is important its not the key to everything, plenty of rich women leave their husbands everyday as well so don't view money as everything to fix black people's issues.
Being content with what and who your are is just as important and alot of black women aren't content and seem to constantly want more until their having a mandatory 2 week vacation sipping fine while and take pics on new islands and living the good life, everyone won't live the good life.
What's really changed America is the entitlement mentality, the real money sees the writing on the wall and if their holding back I can see why. First centuries people where happy with what they had, family and God's blessings now these same people want Ferraris and mansions and feel because they're educated they'll achieve it, so when I say some people don't know history this is what I mean.
the amount of group think in the African American community is bizarre. Need more diversity of thought and experiences.
EdwardA, let me ask you a question. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, you're not an American black but you or your parents immigrated here from Africa, right? I feel that you've mentioned your origins in past posts. I'm curious if you've ever felt a bit shunned by American blacks, blacks whose roots extend as far back as slavery and the Civil War.
I'm a first generation Haitian American and growing up, I've never felt like it fit in with American blacks and even to this day, the cultural differences are pretty stark. As much grief as I and others have given MaryMary for not speaking the lingo of the people she's trying to reach, I'd have to be perfectly honest that I'm not exactly a native to that culture either so wouldn't be a useful leader in that sense either. There are times when that culture does boggle my mind b/c, despite having been born here and lived in poor black communities, it's often alien to me. It didn't grow up in that culture so am not part of that group think.
So yeah, I don't get it either. I know enough to know that many, many girls like these love Chris Brown, rap, and almost feel a bit of pride at being a certain someone's "baby mama", but I don't understand why. I think many just don't branch out, perhaps in part due to racism (maybe they felt the need to cling tighter to their culture in the face of oppression) or just simple ignorance of not knowing what else is out there.
Eventually you'll just leave the born what your saying will have no effect on other people around since many seem to have their own agenda and seem to close their ears from what they don't seem is correct. Your post is very on point but while education is important its not the key to everything, plenty of rich women leave their husbands everyday as well so don't view money as everything to fix black people's issues.
Being content with what and who your are is just as important and alot of black women aren't content and seem to constantly want more until their having a mandatory 2 week vacation sipping fine while and take pics on new islands and living the good life, everyone won't live the good life.
What's really changed America is the entitlement mentality, the real money sees the writing on the wall and if their holding back I can see why. First centuries people where happy with what they had, family and God's blessings now these same people want Ferraris and mansions and feel because they're educated they'll achieve it, so when I say some people don't know history this is what I mean.
Anyways not knocking you but good post.
But even you admitted that plenty of rich women leave their husbands. Like you, I don't see money as the key to "success" (the definition of which varies by the individual). I do believe though that education is the key to broadening one's mind and learning about different avenues available. Educated people in general are less likely to commit crimes or end up in jail/prison. Many inmates don't get an education until they go to jail/prison, by then it is too late since felons especially cannot get financial aid for higher education (vocational programs/jr college/colleges/universities). They cannot vote in many states and are disenfranchised. Education can spur ones mindset against criminality. This can even be evidenced in white populations here in our country, once white people started getting more educated, crime rates went down, especially in immigrant metropolitan ghettoes (Irish, Italian, etc.) like in Chicago and NYC.
You can see evidence of this as well with black people in this country, once educational achievement began to rise, crime began to fall in black neighborhoods. Even with teen parents you can see this. Once sex ed began to be comprehensive in metropolitan communities (I especially remember the urgency of this movement in my own public school when I was a jr. high/high school student) teen pregnancies began to decline and are now lower than they have been in years. Education is the way to combat social ills. For me, that doesn't necessarily mean a college degree. I work with young men and encourage entreprenureship. Especially for former drug dealers and such and inform them if you can sell drugs and make money, get a store in your hood and make money that way, not selling illegal subtances and you won't have to worry about going to jail. Learn a trade and work for yourself. I have a cousin who learned to put in auto glass and used to be drug dealer and he makes a good, honest living now, comparable to what he made doing illegal activities, but now he doesn't have to worry about looking over his shoulder all the time. He is now in a vocational school to be an autobody mechanic. We need mechanics, and HVAC techs, and plumbers, they all make middle wage incomes and you can live a decent life. Not a wealthy life, but you can get by with money left over, have some savings, and take care of your kids and even leave a legacy for your kids being that if they are interested, the kids can take over the business. That is how you come out of poverty and a life of crime - education - focusing on goals - entreprenureship. Even if someone is born OOW, if they have an educational/business goal and get that accomplished they will do well in life and the majority won't become criminals.
I am an advocate of vocational high schools, where kids will graduate with a trade that they can turn into a business. Give young men and women the keys to supporting themselves and you will not have as many criminals on the streets, instead you will have upstanding citizens contributing to their neighborhoods, communities, cities, country, the world.
the masses of young black women who are being socially conditioned to accept the notion that raising children alone, without a father's involvement is fine.
Something has always bothered me about the statistics bandied about when the topic turns to black single mothers and the assumption that the conversation is about "young women" or teens and I was right to be bothered.
1. The teen pregnancy rate for African American women 15-19 has dropped by 48% since 1990
2. 20% of all African female headed households are the result of divorce
3. Black single mothers have a slightly higher rate of high school graduations 37%-35% than their white counterparts.
4. Black single mother have significantly lower number of bachelor's degrees or higher than white single mothers.
5. 32% of black mothers live below the poverty line.
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