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First of all, I am not defending these companies that took bailout money and pay their CEO's outrageous salaries and end up getting massive TAX REFUNDS.
However, in order to get a REFUND, a company had to remit quarterly tax payments to the IRS. That means the money sat in .gov coffers until said REFUNDS were issued. Unfortunately, because Bernanke is such a boob and has kept interest rates near 0%, that money is not making money for anyone. The entire tax code needs to be revised. I personally support a flat tax.
And, as I said that relatively small fee wouldn't be paid until they're under contract. A board often buys a comprehensive feasibility study, which will include site review, civil surveys, test bores, code review, "need" studies, and even an evaluation of the school system's current infrastructure and future needs projections. With that, they may provide electronic files of all conceptual documents, and a lengthy report, pros and con's and alternative options.
Tell me, who should pay for that? Why do you think a school asks a firm to do those things? FYI, it is to discover problem early and save money.
We once spent two years doing a bridge study, Fulton Road Bridge, Cleveland, Ohio. We did preliminary engineering and cost studies on preliminary six, then three finalist, designs. The customer put the final three options to a public opinion poll and finally picked one. Our work, in the long run, saved several times our fees to a strict demo and replace in kind project.
Who pays for that up front work? Does an engineer or architect ALWAYS work on spec? NO. They will at times pour man hours in to close a contract, but nobody would survive if schools and governments didn't pay for the services they request.
I will add that none of that guarantees the architect will get the final contract.
The next phase is often a competitive design contest, with several companies working to meet the school's formal request of proposals. They often do this phase without a fee, thus low paid or unpaid interns crank out models and renderings.
No, that's not what you said. You said:
Quote:
Architects do not work that way. They eat much of the proposal and schematic design costs.
So now a $25-50,000 "consulting fee" is a "relatively small fee"? Really? Funny, I interviewed for an administrative assistant job yesterday that pays $25,000 a year (no benefits) for an accountant, and involved 50 hour work weeks during the tax season. You have a very inflated idea of what constitutes a "small fee". And the Board approves the consulting fee BEFORE deciding on whether to go ahead with a project. Then, if the project appears feasible, the Board determines whether the district has enough in its capital improvements account to go ahead or whether it needs to float a bond issue, at which point the architects are placed on retainer for the rest of the project. Maybe they do things differently in Ohio, but that's how it works in NY.
You're being silly, $25k to $50k is a reasonable fee for a feasibility study.
You are mixing apples and oranges. There are many phases of a construction process.
A feasibility study, that you brought up, is a fee based contract. I ready listed many of the long list of services that could be included. Dozens of ppl putting hundreds of manhours differs from one person doing one part time job.
A design presentation "contest" is a pro bono phase, what I referred to. Several firms will make general schematic design drawings, renderings and models in the hopes of winning the design contract. Customer rarely pay for any of this.
A design phase which is can be broken up into many phases, detailed schematic design thru to construction documents. There's about 4 or 5 approval levels along the way. Moat of the time the preliminary layout work is just trashed and new files will be created.
Now can we move on? You don't have to admit you're wrong just drop your "gotcha nonsense" because you're wrong dude, we're talking about what I did for my career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObserverNY
No, that's not what you said. You said:
So now a $25-50,000 "consulting fee" is a "relatively small fee"? Really? Funny, I interviewed for an administrative assistant job yesterday that pays $25,000 a year (no benefits) for an accountant, and involved 50 hour work weeks during the tax season. You have a very inflated idea of what constitutes a "small fee". And the Board approves the consulting fee BEFORE deciding on whether to go ahead with a project. Then, if the project appears feasible, the Board determines whether the district has enough in its capital improvements account to go ahead or whether it needs to float a bond issue, at which point the architects are placed on retainer for the rest of the project. Maybe they do things differently in Ohio, but that's how it works in NY.
You're being silly, $25k to $50k is a reasonable fee for a feasibility study.
You are mixing apples and oranges. There are many phases of a construction process.
A feasibility study, that you brought up, is a fee based contract. I ready listed many of the long list of services that could be included. Dozens of ppl putting hundreds of manhours differs from one person doing one part time job.
A design presentation "contest" is a pro bono phase, what I referred to. Several firms will make general schematic design drawings, renderings and models in the hopes of winning the design contract. Customer rarely pay for any of this.
A design phase which is can be broken up into many phases, detailed schematic design thru to construction documents. There's about 4 or 5 approval levels along the way. Moat of the time the preliminary layout work is just trashed and new files will be created.
Now can we move on? You don't have to admit you're wrong just drop your "gotcha nonsense" because you're wrong dude, we're talking about what I did for my career.
You can call it "reasonable" As a taxpayer in a school district that spends $37,000 per student (less than 2,100 students K-12) with school property taxes in the $7,000 a year range for a 107 year old 3 BR, 1.5 bath home, I can call "outrageous" on $50,000 being spent on architects to come up with a new parking lot design!
You can call it "reasonable" As a taxpayer in a school district that spends $37,000 per student (less than 2,100 students K-12) with school property taxes in the $7,000 a year range for a 107 year old 3 BR, 1.5 bath home, I can call "outrageous" on $50,000 being spent on architects to come up with a new parking lot design!
And don't call me "dude".
Dude, just move on, you wrong, you were wrong when you started down this sidethread and introducing silly, "oh my god, outrages" isn't making you right about school construction funding.
Ppl don't work for free, your school got what they paid for on that parking lot.
Last edited by buzzards27; 12-07-2012 at 08:21 AM..
The rich generate a lot of anger in America. Most feel that they skirt by without paying the price to be an American.
Do you feel that they need to pay a lot more in taxes to fix our economy?
First, if you want to "fix the economy" leave the government out of it....
2nd, I do see a difference in the pics.
With Romney, it's private sector - the guy shining his shoes is performing
a service, and frankly quite the lost art.
The other guy is just high fiving Obama, "Could we call him slacking on the job?"
As far as who needs to pay a lot more in taxes...
I'd like to see all those on welfare and Medicaid, pay at least a 15 percent federal tax
on their public benefits. Take some financial responsibility.
Because unless you pay, how can you make
educated decisions e.g. how long to stay in wars and borrow to pay
for them, not having a balanced budget, or cost of health care reforms,
unless you pay something towards it at the federal level.
Dude, just move on, you wrong, you were wrong when you started down this sidethread and introducing silly, "oh my god, outrages" isn't making you right about school construction funding.
Ppl don't work for free, you school got what they paid for on that parking lot.
I am NOT a "dude". Furthermore, I find $50,000 for a set of plans to "revise" an existing parking lot to be outrageous. The "school" does not pay anything. The taxpayers fund the schools. Maybe when professions like architects and other "consultants" get that through their thick heads, they will understand why states like NY and California are bankrupt and people are leaving in droves.
I am NOT a "dude". Furthermore, I find $50,000 for a set of plans to "revise" an existing parking lot to be outrageous. The "school" does not pay anything. The taxpayers fund the schools. Maybe when professions like architects and other "consultants" get that through their thick heads, they will understand why states like NY and California are bankrupt and people are leaving in droves.
FYI, dude is a gender neutral term, get up to speed.
Schools and any government at any level aren't throwing money around. Believe me, any money paid out is well earned.
I'm not sure why you think you're right here. There is plenty of waste going on in school construction but it isn't in the A&E fees. More likely, it is in overblown designs that are more costly to build and lack of standardization and uniformity. If it were me there would be national design standards that reduced construction costs. But EVERYONE seems to want a unique statement making structure that set the design (monuments to architects' ego) and structures (monuments to those named on the dedication plaque).
My guess is you know nothing about what services the A&E firm provided for that fee. If they provided construction documents and field supervision the school got a real deal.
FYI, dude is a gender neutral term, get up to speed.
dedication plaque).
You use the putdown as an ad hominem way of trying to diminish him, and then you invent something off the wall to rationalize it. Not a stellar performance.
FYI, dude is a gender neutral term, get up to speed.
Once again, you are incorrect. However, you seem to enjoy repeatedly poking me with the term, despite my request that you NOT call me "dude". And that, is RUDE!
Quote:
Schools and any government at any level aren't throwing money around. Believe me, any money paid out is well earned.
Is that so? Again, I beg to differ. The average teacher's salary in my district is $107,000 for 182 days of work. Our Superintendent makes over $300,000 and her retired hubby is collecting a pension of over $500,000. They ARE what Obama calls "the rich" .... public school administrators .... public servants ...... and government schools aren't "throwing money around"?? Are you freaking kidding me? How about the NYC teachers who didn't want to give up their liposuction and cosmetic surgery benefits? Not throwing money around?? What you once again fail to understand, because you are obviously a Liberal, is that other Liberals love to spend OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY!
Then, after wasting hard earned taxpayer dollars on useless feasibility studies (and NOT performing feasibility studies in other areas when they are required), these government schools hold the children and parents hostage to their fearmongering and immediately threaten to cut sports, busing, art, music, etc, if we don't pass their over-bloated annual tax increases. When thousands of teachers lose their jobs because there are no longer children left to teach because young families can't afford to pay the real estate taxes on even starter homes in the area, maybe THEN the union will wake up? I doubt it.
As to your "national standards", give me a break. You should have seen the giant inflated RAT outside of our HS when the district brought in non-union workers for a portion of the work. Lovely for the children to look at while they are at school.
Don't even THINK about telling me I don't understand what goes on in government schools....
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