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There is NO government entity that will determine end-of-life care. The provisions that are in the ACA are NO different than those already utilized by bioethics boards at hospitals and "deciders" in health insurance corporations.
And there's the spin: there is no provision that doesn't also exist elsewhere. There's no government entity that will determine end-of-life care.
But, of course, there is. They just don't call it that. It's just the independent payment advisory board. It isn't a death panel.
Just like Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion mill. It's a mammogram provider. The IRS wasn't targeting the president's political opponents. It was just a couple rogue agents misbehaving and it was a complete coincidence that the overwhelming majority of the groups targeted were conservative.
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Why people get so excited about the fact that the ACA, in many cases, merely codifies what has already been occurring for YEARS is totally beyond me.
Perhaps it's beyond you because you tell people to "move along" instead of looking into the situation.
But I'll go ahead and educate you for the benefit of others who are reading this post as I am sure you, the open minded liberal, are too close minded to accept anything which contradicts your ideology.
The difference between a decider at an insurance company and one in the government, is that the decider at the insurance company does not have the weight of the federal government behind him. He doesn't get to make decisions that will be enforced by law over every person in the nation. The people he decides for are voluntary customers. If an insurance company decides they will no longer pay for a certain procedure and enough people want that procedure, then the company will lose its customer base and doctors will drop that insurance agency. If a hospital board decides that it will not perform a particular procedure, you can go to another hospital. The government, on the other hand, cannot lose its customer base. Its customer base is the entire population of the nation whether they like it or not. And the board is comprised of un-elected officials. There are no appeals. There are no alternatives.
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There is no "gotcha" here. Move along.
Yes, and Benghazi was just an unforeseeable spontaneous street protest. The IRS targeting of conservative groups was just a couple rogue agents in the Cincinnati office. And they had no idea Solyndra could go under before they loaned them 500 million dollars. And Eric Holder had no knowledge of fast & furious. And the government conducts no domestic spying program. And sequestration was all the Republicans fault. And no red line was drawn with Syria. Yes, just move along. Nothing to see here. Just another phony scandal.
So people should trust that a health insurance company to know far better than the government as to when is the right time to throw a terminally ill sick person out of the hospital?
No. The argument isn't whether government can decide better or worse than an insurance company.
The argument is that liberals said the panels did not exist at all and openly mocked people who said they did.
Big difference.
It's the same as how they made fun of all the conservative "fearmongers" who warned that Obamacare would cause massive loss of insurance coverage for people who had insurance already and were happy with it. Except it turned out the White House had strategy meetings where they knew people were going to lose the coverage all along and decided to go with the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" line anyway.
And how they said the conservatives who questioned Susan Rice's claim that the government had no information regarding terrorist involvement in Benghazi were just racists. Except it turned out they did have a CIA memo that explicitly stated they suspected terrorist involvement.
The shame is that an OP that starts a thread like this doesn't ask a mod to delete it ( or change the title) with humility and embarrassment on the basis that it isn't true.
BTW....truly interested conservatives opposed to the ACA do not believe crap like this.
There's enough to object to that is legitimate.
Well I guess labeling the panel as a "Death Panel" does make you not pay attention.
This type of panel existed before but they could only recommend to Congress.
They had no teeth and could not "do" anything.
Obamacare gave them authority though.
They are in charge of cost containment but cannot do anything about cost.
About the only thing they have power to do is cut provider payments (medicare).
But the power to do so was moved from Congress to them.
They come out with their cut proposal.
Congress can only override them if Congress comes up with a different plan cutting the same amount otherwise Congress must approve what the panel proposes.
If the panel does not come up with a cut proposal then HHS gets to do it and has the same authority and power the panel has. Again Congress can only override if they come up with the same amount of cuts otherwise they have to approve.
By making cuts in provider reimbursements they are indeed indirectly rationing care. Doctors can only carry so many medicare patients and still operate.
The board cannot cut any payments to hospitals until 2020; they are limited to cutting payments to doctors.
The panel cannot contain "costs" of medical care. They can only contain the reimbursement amounts they pay out.
The costs themselves will continue to rise.
Also, as far as I know, the government in Canada's system doesn't make these decisions, except in extreme circumstances. Care and procedures are decided upon between doctor and patient. And it seems to work.
That is correct, treatment is determined by the doctor and patient - the government has no role in it. The only exception to that is where the person is not competent to make their own decisions and whoever has the enduring power of care then makes the decisions on their behalf. Generally that is a family member or friend but in some extreme cases it could be a court appointed monitor.
I'm a nurse and I've seen it all. Families with misplaced guilt keeping people alive at all costs, hooked up to every machine possible, and having procedure after procedure, surgery after surgery.
Sometimes the patients have a moment of lucidity, where they'd grab my hand and whisper "Miss, please let me die."
Naturally, we can't. It breaks my heart.
I am dealing with that right now as a minister. It is clear the patient is on the way out, the children are saying let them go - the spouse is not quite as willing to let go. Hospital staff are doing only what is medically necessary but they have a fine line to walk (which IMO they are doing beautifully).
That is correct, treatment is determined by the doctor and patient - the government has no role in it. The only exception to that is where the person is not competent to make their own decisions and whoever has the enduring power of care then makes the decisions on their behalf. Generally that is a family member or friend but in some extreme cases it could be a court appointed monitor.
With medicare though the government controls how much it will pay the doctors/hospitals.
That's where the government has their power.
Being "humane" to the older people (no matter what state of health) is not what the "US Gubbermint" mindset as they just want to KILL, other countries must either be in shock and or laughing at us on what we're doing.
Too bad these politicians and their big personal $$ wallets will never see the day their inhumane laws bite them in the arse.
He knows they don't "do it anyway". That's just RWNJ for I have to say something here so out comes bullcrap.
No hospital is going to embark on a long cancer treatment protocol without having payment approved and guaranteed. Talk about a confused freemarket believer.
Talk about a confused. Nothing like spreading falsehood. Please spare us. We get enough from Obama and his mouthpieces.
I've personally seen this happen. Hospitals DO treat without payment guaranteed. Even when they know there is not going to be a payment.
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Originally Posted by jojajn
Have at it Acorn! This is the life that awaits you for your determination to "get it back!"
For every one of those I could give you dozens, perhaps hundreds of positive proof of the opposite. Amazing at the fearmongering that you liberals engage in, with an eye to pushing granny over the cliff.
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Originally Posted by Gurbie
LOL... Where is your god NOW, Commies?
You guys crack me up.
Halperin didn't say " death panels"- the RW jock interviewing him did, and Mark failed to correct him. Here's the walk back:
BTW, you DO know that, prior to Obamacare there really WERE death panels, right? They we're run by insurance companies...
And now they'll be run by the government. Another takeover.
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Originally Posted by borregokid
So if you are a Tea Partier and over the age of 65 its time to open up the gubbermint spigots and let the dollars just flow until the day you die. Hey did you guys ever think you were hypocrites while robbing the national treasury for all your procedures?
Sounds greedy. I suppose you'd rather the spigots flow for you instead of others. Ever hear of any younger persons with severe illnesses that "rob the national treasury for all their procedures"?
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