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Old 08-02-2014, 12:16 PM
 
6,574 posts, read 6,743,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators View Post
and I find it hilarious when straight white men support the democrat party when it openly hates them.
Best post of the Day
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,173,997 times
Reputation: 21743
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Exactly. I already posted the fact that our country's public schools only educate 1/3 of all public school students to grade-level proficiency.

Only 1/3.

Send your kids to public school, and the odds are strongly against them being educated to even bare-minimum standards.
The Public School System did not fail....you failed.

The Public Schools were intended to be operated as Free Market Communism.

The Free Market is an Economic System; Communism is not...it's a Property Theory.


And everything on this Earth is subject to the immutable Laws of Economics -- no exception.


Here's a Liberal lie: Jeffersonian Democracy.

Jefferson used the word "democracy" about 5 times in his entire freaking life. Jefferson wrote extensively about republics and republicanism. He was smart enough to realize that on a large scale democracy would fail, and so representative democracy is the best alternative. However, he believed that pure democracy could exist at lower levels, specifically at the community level.

That brings us to two important pieces of legislation in your history, and those are the Land Ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.

There's a large body of evidence to suggest they were aware of the short-comings of the Articles of Confederation and were already looking at a constitutional republic at that time, before voting to make it happen in 1789.

Those two key pieces of legislation laid the ground-work for this new representative democracy.

The Land Ordinance of 1785 created townships.

What two things can you say about townships? They are all the same -- being exactly equal in size -- and they all have the exact same amount of land set aside exclusively for educational purposes.

Introducing...the immutable Laws of Economics.

When your children are educated, you benefit, they benefit and the community benefits. It's possible that larger entities such as the State or the World may also benefit.

How do you go about doing that? Teachers are born, not made. Not everyone can teach; the parent may not be sufficiently educated to teach; there's financial, space and time considerations acquiring the educational resources necessary to teach your child at home; the parent-child relationship may not be conducive to a parent/teacher-child relationship; there are issues of socialization; you'd rather be fishing; or working and making money, or making a name for yourself.

Those are Opportunity Costs. What's it worth to you?

You could hire a tutor, but then the other 100 families in your community are also hiring tutors, and so are the families in the townships adjacent to yours.

You'll pay $10/hour for a tutor? I'm willing to pay $12/hour.....sucks to be you, because you can't afford $12/hour. Another is willing to pay $15/hour.....sucks to be me, because I can't afford $15/hour.

That is an example of Supply & Demand determining wages.

You could pool resources with a neighbor.

Problem is that there is no such thing as 1:1 Teacher-Student Ratio and never could be: the immutable Laws of Economics would never permit it, since it is a grossly inefficient use of Capital.

Get together with 30 or 40 families, split costs, and maybe you could get do it, but then space is now a consideration.

You could all chip in together and buy land and building school building.


But you don't need to buy the land....it's already been set aside in your township for you. All you have to do is review architectural designs, discuss the pros and cons with families in your township and then vote on which one you want.

Teachers can be hired and paid based on Free Market wage/salary rates.

You might not have the time to interview teachers, but you can elect a school board of people to represent you and your interests, hire and fire teachers and over-see the operation of the school.

So, you have property, owned by the community, here a township, hence Communism, using the Free Market to hire teachers and to maintain the structure.

Life was beautiful, until you failed.

You handed the reigns to the first slick talking power-seeking control freak that came along and sold you a paper bag filled with nothing.

And even that wouldn't have been so bad, except that for every power hungry control freak that came along you got on your knees and handed over power and control for free and it didn't matter if they had a (D) or an (R) appended to their name.

Where are you now?

Well, now, there's someone in the District of Columbia -- a bureaucrat (that you didn't elect), whose name you don't even know, you don't know if they are male or female or what their qualifications are, and yet they are writing rules and regulations that affect you and your child's education, impacting the future of you and your child and your community.

This someone -- this bureaucrat (that you didn't elect) doesn't know you, doesn't know anything about you, doesn't know anything about your child or your child's needs or the needs of other families and other children in your community, and doesn't know anything about your community.....and probably couldn't even find your community on a freaking map using GoogleEarth....

....but they're calling the shots
.

'Cause that makes so much sense, right?

What do you know about your child, and your neighbors and their children and the needs of the people in your little township?

Nothing....right?

How do you wrest power and control back where it belongs?

At this stage of the game, it's civil war or secession.

I don't care if you're immortal and you vote in every election from now until this Universe sighs to a frozen halt in Space.....government will never yield control. That is not what governments do, and that is not the purpose and function government. The sole function of government -- in practice....in Realityâ„¢ -- is to acquire more and more power and control.....and they never yield unless you can bring them to their knees.

Good luck with that....


Mircea
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Old 08-02-2014, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,173,997 times
Reputation: 21743
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
That's great until you need a police officer, your house is on fire, or your kid needs an education and you can't pay for private school.

Seriously, listen to yourself...you sound pathetic. Did a public school teacher molest you as a kid or something?
The pathetic one is the one using a....

Scare Tactic

If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.

Which came first.....the police....or unions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators View Post
it always reverts back to the policemen and firemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreutz View Post
Municipal employees work for for profit corporations?

This is news to me.

The only people harmed by their luxurious union deals are taxpayers.
That is because their argument is so weak and pathetic it cannot withstand debate and so they can do nothing but resort to endless fallacies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
Do you really think your employer would care what you wanted. They pay want they want. Are you that special that they would pay more. I'm just asking...because unions negotiate for a better pay
Why don't all employers pay nothing other than the federal or State minimum wage?

Wages/salaries are based on the Supply & Demand of any one of the given 800+ Skill-sets in anyone of the more than 1,539 Labor Markets in the US.

Your musings are debunked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
And no you didnt say "to the point where the only money left is their pension funds." you said "Maybe bleed them so badly they have to dip into their pension funds." Important difference there.
Yes, and that's the great paradox/irony.

If you unions by law cannot raid their own pension funds, then I guess they'll have to dip into those [illegal] slush funds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Well now thats a interesting take on it. So if thats true why havent there been more successful lawsuits based upon that?
It's called "pre-Trial Settlement."

The unions pay you lots of money to go away, in exchange for which you file Plaintiff's Motion to Dismiss with Prejudice.

Plus, Conservatives are different.

Conservatives believe in community and try to build a consensus -- which is inclusive of everyone.

Liberals do exactly the opposite. Liberals claim --as part of their plank -- that "people are good" but that's just lip-service. Liberals scream "democracy" blah blah blah blah, but that's just lip-service, too.

Liberals do everything in their power to cut those "good people" out of the loop to disenfranchise them.

When Conservatives engage, you get this stupid nonsense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
Yeah, unions give to the Democrats because THE REPUBLICANS HATE WORKING PEOPLE. What part of this do you not get? YOU DON'T GIVE MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT FOR YOU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
So you hate working people too? Sue them for what, for having the gall and audacity to want decent working conditions and decent wages?
....and when that doesn't work, they scream, "Racist/Racism!"

And when that doesn't work, they do an end-run and try to legislate or adjudicate, which effectively disenfranchises the "good people" from the democratic process.

It works like this...

Liberal: We need to spend 10 hours of class-time per week discussing condoms and mutual masturbation in schools.
Conservative: We have had one unwed pregnancy in the last 70 years. Our culture, influenced heavily by our ethnicity does not approve of birth control. Even so, parents and children have frank discussions regarding sexual activity.
Liberal:..... Racist!

And then the Liberal tries to ram laws down people's throats or files lawsuits to legislate from the bench.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
Ok, you keep telling yourself that, by the way it is a good thing we do not use real names here, otherwise your appreciation of first responders might not be so appreciated by them.
Scare Tactic

If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.


What's more important to a 1st Responder? Being in a union, or performing their job?

Unions are not a requirement to perform any task on this Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
I do notice you are scared that it could happen, so you realize that there really could be possible reactions to the actions of others, well maybe not to you, since they do not know who you are, the lawmakers, they do know their names, may they get the service they deserve
I'm not scared......I'm merely demonstrating that your argument is so weak that the only thing you can do is engage in scare tactics --- threatening, coercing or intimidating people to believe police/fire won't do their jobs if unions don't exist....that's quite NAZI-like.

Police and fire crews existed and performed long before unions existed.

I could write individual employment contracts for police, and then draw up separate employment contracts for fire, specifying no union/non-union/no collective bargaining and get 10,000 applications within a few hours.

Does that scare you?....


Mircea
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Old 08-02-2014, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
18,462 posts, read 7,094,796 times
Reputation: 11707
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
Actually, what happened (and you would know this if you really followed things), Walker and the Republicans gave the wealthy and corporations a huge tax break at the start of his administration, and used the consequent budget shortfall to justify "needing" to pass Act 10.

I always love the "crabs in the basket" mentality that is used to justify knocking down public union workers..."You're doing better than me...so rather than trying to go out and get similar benefits for myself, I'm going to drag you down with me."

"Divide and conquer" politics does indeed work, just like Walker said it would to one of his donors (search for the video if you want).
Normally I would tend to agree if we were talking about the private sector where employees are judged on their merit and worth to the company.
But the situation changes when it's my taxes that are paying for their wages and Cadillac benifits, not to mention how difficult it is to fire incompetent public union members who wouldn't last a day in a non-union environment.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:14 AM
 
2,776 posts, read 3,596,434 times
Reputation: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
How come it's not a problem when some Republican takes campaign money from an out-of-state corporation, and then awards them a no-bid contract?
Wouldn't know. All projects (seemingly no matter how small) here are by sealed bid thanks to our Republican legislature. The newspaper ads are full of this or that city/county looking for bids on all kinds of stuff.

Now back in good ole Dem run NY no bids were the norm. Shocking.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:04 AM
 
7,214 posts, read 9,397,504 times
Reputation: 7803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreutz View Post
Wouldn't know. All projects (seemingly no matter how small) here are by sealed bid thanks to our Republican legislature. The newspaper ads are full of this or that city/county looking for bids on all kinds of stuff.

Now back in good ole Dem run NY no bids were the norm. Shocking.
FWIW, I'm against any state government awarding no-bid contracts, Democratic or Republican. Walker has made it a norm, even going so far as to start selling off state assets to out-of-state companies.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:15 AM
 
2,776 posts, read 3,596,434 times
Reputation: 2312
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
FWIW, I'm against any state government awarding no-bid contracts, Democratic or Republican. Walker has made it a norm, even going so far as to start selling off state assets to out-of-state companies.
It sounds like not living in WI is the answer to your problems.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:36 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,219,583 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
Yes, they do, tell that to the first responders that stop to eat lunch as your house burns and people loot what is left of your belongings
That's assuming that your every first responder is an animal unless they have it their way. It's intentionally demonizing first responders who may or may not see unions your way.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:43 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,219,583 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
Ok, you keep telling yourself that, by the way it is a good thing we do not use real names here, otherwise your appreciation of first responders might not be so appreciated by them. I do notice you are scared that it could happen, so you realize that there really could be possible reactions to the actions of others, well maybe not to you, since they do not know who you are, the lawmakers, they do know their names, may they get the service they deserve
This "deserve" is self righteous. They "deserve" only in the sense that unions must be right and there can be no rejection to that. They are entitled. This invalidates the reasoning for unions. The real logic is "just get me what I want or else let me show you the ropes." Typical.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:58 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,219,583 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
Hendricks: "Any chance we'll ever get to be a completely red state and work on these unions and become a right-to-work? What can we do to help you?" Walker: "Well, we're going to start in a couple weeks with our budget adjustment bill. The first step is we're going to deal with collective bargaining for all public employee unions, because you use divide and conquer. . ."
Scott Walker - SourceWatch

It's going to be interesting to see the reaction of the "hey I have no problem with private unions" people when Walker goes after those private unions
Divide and conquer is just a strategy. Neutral. It can be used to disincentivise a group of entitled people.
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