When are the bottom 50% going to start paying their fair share? (liberal, democrat)

[aus10]

Originally Posted by orogenicman

Describe "comfortably middle class".

Comfortably middle class is just that. A home that neither is a hovel nor a McMansion. A mortgage but not a debt for 30 years that hangs over our head like a lead balloon. 2 cars...neither Porsche's or Lamborghini's yet serviced, street-worthy and safe to drive. We paid for kids college education in full with the help of academic scholarships, no grants nor loans. We can safely go to the grocery without pulling out a SNAP card, but I do clip coupons and check the weekly ads for specials to keep the budget in check. We do not take annual ski trip vacations but we have saved enough to once in a while "splurge" on a family trip (twice in 30 years). And now as an "empty nest" we are slowly but surely trying to put back for our retirement years, but somehow life seems to be having different thoughts on that one. Like I said... caring for elderly parents, especially when all three remaining live in different areas of the country with differing stages of physical and mental problems is proving to be quite the expense. Sigh... But I digress.. We don't live excessively nor do we need for the basics. We're comfortable. Food on the table and a perfectly suitable roof over our heads. But it took us 35 years of me working 40 hours and my husband 60 or more per week to get to this point. You see I budget very carefully. I follow my budget. And have for years. And I know that it wouldn't take many more taxes (or astronomical premium costs rising!!! like what ObamaCare has done to my budget) to push that first domino down. And when one falls.....they all will go.

I'm grateful and blessed that I have the things and the life we've built. And I do have compassion for those less fortunate then I am. But at the same time.... I do not owe them. And I especially despise being told, "You didn't build that"... because yes I did. These cracked old callused hands show that I did.

[jerseygal4u]

Originally Posted by aus10

Comfortably middle class is just that. A home that neither is a hovel nor a McMansion. A mortgage but not a debt for 30 years that hangs over our head like a lead balloon. 2 cars...neither Porsche's or Lamborghini's yet serviced, street-worthy and safe to drive. We paid for kids college education in full with the help of academic scholarships, no grants nor loans. We can safely go to the grocery without pulling out a SNAP card, but I do clip coupons and check the weekly ads for specials to keep the budget in check. We do not take annual ski trip vacations but we have saved enough to once in a while "splurge" on a family trip (twice in 30 years). And now as an "empty nest" we are slowly but surely trying to put back for our retirement years, but somehow life seems to be having different thoughts on that one. Like I said... caring for elderly parents, especially when all three remaining live in different areas of the country with differing stages of physical and mental problems is proving to be quite the expense. Sigh... But I digress.. We don't live excessively nor do we need for the basics. We're comfortable. Food on the table and a perfectly suitable roof over our heads. But it took us 35 years of me working 40 hours and my husband 60 or more per week to get to this point. You see I budget very carefully. I follow my budget. And have for years. And I know that it wouldn't take many more taxes (or astronomical premium costs rising!!! like what ObamaCare has done to my budget) to push that first domino down. And when one falls.....they all will go.

I'm grateful and blessed that I have the things and the life we've built. And I do have compassion for those less fortunate then I am. But at the same time.... I do not owe them. And I especially despise being told, "You didn't build that"... because yes I did. These cracked old callused hands show that I did.

That sounds like working class,not middle class.

[petch751]

Originally Posted by freemkt

??? ???

Maybe Obama has enough political sense to not propose a wealth tax?

And where did hubby #1 get a business loan? With what collateral?

Yet the point of the post sails right over your head. Obama hurt the people trying, he didn't hurt the already rich.

Of course he wouldn't propose a wealth tax, that would be political suicide. Wealth tax would also hurt people who are responsible and trying too. IDEA! How about Obama and government in general get their spending under control like the rest must do. Oh that's right, government has a piggy bank called "the people's money" to raid.

Who knows where hubby got his business loan. Being a small business owner myself I can guarantee you that it wasn't a government loan, so no, government didn't help him build that. Most borrow against their homes, I borrowed using available credit on my credit cards.

[aus10]

Originally Posted by jerseygal4u

That sounds like working class,not middle class.

So what's the difference?

[petch751]

Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
That sounds like working class,not middle class.

I think aus10 is middle class not working class. People who have some or all of these class indicators, and their family members:

working class:
- has little or no college education; in particular no BA from a 4-year college;
- low or negative net worth (assets minus debts);
- rental housing, or one non-luxury home long saved for and possibly lived in for decades;
- occupations involving physical work and/or little control in the workplace.
- A subset of working class people who chronically can't get income sufficient to cover all their basic needs.
- substandard housing or homelessness;
- long-time use of public benefits, such as welfare, or charity.

Middle Class:
Most dictionaries define “middle class” to mean the people between the upper classes and working class but it seems that definition has changed. The middle class is subdivided into the working poor, the middle, and upper middle class.

Somewhat more prosperous and secure, but they have a lot in common with working class people, such as less college than a BA, and/or less control over their work, and/or fewer assets than professional middle-class families. If they own a small business, it can only survive by the proprietor's hands-on work.

Betrayal of the middle class:
The rich own assets which produce income but the source and amount of income can be controlled. Raising taxes on income does not affect the rich as much as it does the middle class who earns most income classified as W2. Obama betrayed the middle class. He demonizes the upper middle class who educated themselves, started businesses trying to become rich but not rich yet but Obama's calls them the rich. He enacted policies that hurt the upper middle class which in turn hurt the middle and lower middle class. It's like he put a ceiling on or made the climb into wealth more difficult. Of course his supporters who don't understand money don't understand it, they live in a world dependent on income. Obama and Democrats took advantage of their lack of knowledge.

[westboundrambler]

Originally Posted by petch751

I think aus10 is middle class not working class. People who have some or all of these class indicators, and their family members:

working class:
- has little or no college education; in particular no BA from a 4-year college;
- low or negative net worth (assets minus debts);
- rental housing, or one non-luxury home long saved for and possibly lived in for decades;
- occupations involving physical work and/or little control in the workplace.
- A subset of working class people who chronically can't get income sufficient to cover all their basic needs.
- substandard housing or homelessness;
- long-time use of public benefits, such as welfare, or charity.

Middle Class:
Most dictionaries define “middle class” to mean the people between the upper classes and working class but it seems that definition has changed. The middle class is subdivided into the working poor, the middle, and upper middle class.

Somewhat more prosperous and secure, but they have a lot in common with working class people, such as less college than a BA, and/or less control over their work, and/or fewer assets than professional middle-class families. If they own a small business, it can only survive by the proprietor's hands-on work.

Obama betrayed the middle class. He demonizes the upper middle class and calls them the rich. He enacted policies that hurt the upper middle class which in turn hurt the middle and lower middle class.

That's a little bit of a ridiculous perception of the working class. I'm working class, probably a very typical working class and here's your points that apply to me:

working class:
- has little or no college education; in particular no BA from a 4-year college;-correct, I dropped out of college when I realized all the topics that interested me (Music, Literature, & History) didn't pay worth a damn, so I decided instead of wasting money, I'd work a desk job and be a musical entrepreneur on the side.
- low or negative net worth (assets minus debts);-Low, yes but I've never had a cent of debt in my life.
- rental housing, or one non-luxury home long saved for and possibly lived in for decades;-I rent a small house in the country
- occupations involving physical work and/or little control in the workplace.-I do everything at the company I work for, it's a very VERY small company, but I'm the most well rounded and knowledgeable employee (I've been here the longest)
- A subset of working class people who chronically can't get income sufficient to cover all their basic needs. -all my basic needs are covered, though I feel I'm underpaid, and should definitely be making more
- substandard housing or homelessness;-my house is small but nice, clean, and in a beautiful area. It suits my needs, but I'm a minimalist
- long-time use of public benefits, such as welfare, or charity.-Never, not once.

[petch751]

Originally Posted by westboundrambler

That's a little bit of a ridiculous perception of the working class. I'm working class, probably a very typical working class and here's your points that apply to me:

working class:
- has little or no college education; in particular no BA from a 4-year college;
correct, I dropped out of college when I realized all the topics that interested me (Music, Literature, & History) didn't pay worth a damn, so I decided instead of wasting money, I'd work a desk job and be a musical entrepreneur on the side.
So you're working class and fit the definition I gave then say the definition is ridiculous?

- low or negative net worth (assets minus debts);
Low, yes but I've never had a cent of debt in my life.
So you have low net worth and no debt... ok??? Rich people can have lots of debt but still have high net worth. What's your point? Again, you fit the definition yet call it ridiculous.

- rental housing, or one non-luxury home long saved for and possibly lived in for decades;
I rent a small house in the country
Again, you rent.. you fit the definition yet call my definition ridiculous.

- occupations involving physical work and/or little control in the workplace.
I do everything at the company I work for, it's a very VERY small company, but I'm the most well rounded and knowledgeable employee (I've been here the longest)
So do you tell your employee when you work? ..

- A subset of working class people who chronically can't get income sufficient to cover all their basic needs.
all my basic needs are covered, though I feel I'm underpaid, and should definitely be making more
Ok so you don't fit into the subset of working class. Then again, welfare covers people's basic needs.

- substandard housing or homelessness;-my house is small but nice, clean, and in a beautiful area. It suits my needs, but I'm a minimalist
Ok so again, you don't fit into the subset

- long-time use of public benefits, such as welfare, or charity.-Never, not once.

By your example I was right on.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by freemkt

Actually, Thomas Sowell devoted an entire book chapter (Markets and Minorities, Chapter 7) to the "generally upward" redistributive effect of zoning and housing regulations. (Sowell saw the redistribution as occurring from renters to property owners, hence generally but not exclusively upward.)

What does that have to do with the fact that you made bad life and financial decisions, are suffering the consequences of those bad decisions, and so cannot buy your own home?

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by freemkt

Then why doesn't A get to keep more of what he earned?

Don't ask me, I'm for completely abolishing the income tax.

[westboundrambler]

Originally Posted by petch751

By your example I was right on.

What? Can you read? All the points you made that had NEGATIVE connotations were OFF! The only assumptions of yours I fit into where the non negative ones.