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We could start within the ones that we ourselves continuously proclaim. If we were able to live up to our own standards, the country would be much more widely envied and admired -- by Americans and foreigners alike -- than what it is today.
Yes, and if we change the 300 million to 310 million, India wins. Nothing like restricting the possible comparisons to exactly two other countries.
Other than as examples of alternative ideas, I'll leave other countries out if it entirely and compare what the US actually is doing with what it could and should be doing. This will prompt counter-arguments that consist primarily of cries of "Communism!!!" or perhaps "Socialisticalitiness!!!". Soon after that, the thread will be Closed as there are plenty out there who simply aren't prepared to hear it...
Making a REAL effort to LEARN, here, (I LOVE polite discourse)..so, you're saying we compare FAVORABLY with India? or not? Not quite clear. (besides, our "social contract" is VASTLY different from that of India's...while it must be admitted they probably speak a better class of English than we do here)..
Sounds to ME like you're chiding us to conform to a standard that we ALONE set, and to which only WE are to be measured. That's fine, and noble...yet it DOES open us up to some comparisons that MAY not be altogether fair. It gets somewhat arbitrary, when you're comparing any organization only to ITSELF...and to what it MIGHT be doing. It's a bit like saying we have a restive, unsatisfied group of 20 million illegal residents among us...and that we SHOULD better accomodate them, because that's "what we do"...That may be true, but they wouldn't BE here' if we patrolled our borders, and kept out those who have no authorization to ENTER here...and that's ALSO a "standard" we've set, and are now ignoring. So what do we do? Enforce immigration law? Accomodate the 'unfortunate"? Or both? or neither?....
No problem with striving for excellence, or continually improving, of COURSE...
Sorry. I can be kinda snarky and sarcastic at times. I just get a little irritated at times when I detect conspiracy theories. Honestly, messed up as our government is, I'm happy. I have the ability to live my life however I want. All of these supposed limitations on my freedoms have had absolutely no effect on my life. I'm not complacent about this either, but I just don't see it.
To use an extreme example not meant as a directly analogy to our current system, I come from a family who was well taken care of due to their political affiliation in their home country (my great-uncle was a staunch capitalist who was the asst treasurer of a formerly communist central european country that shall remain nameless and tried to change the system from within). My family's rights were never infringed upon do to his position in power. Similarly, many Aryan Germans had plenty of property and civil rights under the Reich's rule during the late 30's and early 40's. Just because YOU have rights doesn't mean you should be complacent to those around you who may be stripped of them, like the retired school teacher in Long Branch, NJ:
You also don't see that the child tax credits you receive (presumably from the mommy handle) are often taken under consideration when people choose to have more children as opposed to less. Incentivizing through the government is just another form of manipulation, yet the sheeple eat it up.
Until these property rights protections affect YOU, of course you don't see it as a problem.
And you sir/madam bite the hand that feeds you! BTW, there are a lot of legal immigrants here that don't come from 3rd world countries who probably contribute a heck of a lot more economically than the likes of you and do not feed off the entitlements you so summarily describe.
No "sir", I am a US citizen born here. I am speaking about the people you believe are coming over for a better life. Many of the people who are immigrating here are only doing so to avoid paying taxes (border crossers), get free medical care (ER), and use the free public school system. This financial raping comes at a cost to the American taxpayer and falls short of their cheap labor efforts to drive an economy. Now that we're in a housing depression, I doubt we need them in such large degrees anymore.
As I've inserted above, I believe the things you've listed are related to freedoms and liberties. I also don't think that many, given the fact that others were arrested without being charged, would support the arrest of Americans. There are plenty of us, typically Libertarians and true conservatives, who will stand up and defend these freedoms and liberties to the death.
There's plenty of us in Idaho that agree with this 100%. Good insert!!!
Making a REAL effort to LEARN, here, (I LOVE polite discourse)..so, you're saying we compare FAVORABLY with India? or not? Not quite clear.
Hmmm. You start out with the usual "Show me any other country..." as if this were going to be some broad sort of challenge, and then somewhere along the line toss in the old "of 300 million people..." qualifier. There ARE only three countries in the world with a population of 300 million or more -- the US, India, and China. That's stacking the deck a little bit, as the 310 million people qualifier would do also, since that would kick the US out of the competiton. Now, any Indian can make exactly the same claims without any worry of India's being compared unfavorably to the US. The only allowed comparison left is to China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
...(besides, our "social contract" is VASTLY different from that of India's...
As is the degree to which our cultures emphasize a "social contract" at all. The fact that it is wantonly shredded by profiteers and plunderers might therefore make more of a difference in one society than in the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Sounds to ME like you're chiding us to conform to a standard that we ALONE set, and to which only WE are to be measured.
Sounds to me more like walking the walk if you're going to go around talking the talk. Or maybe putting your money where your mouth is, or getting that beam out of thine own eye. I suggest that we re-examine our commitment to meeting what have long been our own principles and values. Once we have returned to meeting those on some reasonably consistent basis, we will be much more able honestly to confront the standards of the rest of the world, meeting those with either principled praise or principled disapproval.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
That's fine, and noble...yet it DOES open us up to some comparisons that MAY not be altogether fair. It gets somewhat arbitrary, when you're comparing any organization only to ITSELF...and to what it MIGHT be doing. It's a bit like saying we have a restive, unsatisfied group of 20 million illegal residents among us...and that we SHOULD better accomodate them, because that's "what we do"...That may be true, but they wouldn't BE here' if we patrolled our borders, and kept out those who have no authorization to ENTER here...and that's ALSO a "standard" we've set, and are now ignoring. So what do we do? Enforce immigration law? Accomodate the 'unfortunate"? Or both? or neither?....
Wrong forum for it, but we have not just invited, but essentially commanded these people to come. We just haven't handled it very well. Look into the rise and fall of the maquiladoras. Ask what those hundreds of thousands of displaced workers were supposed to do. Compare and contrast to what South Korea has been doing re bussing hundreds of thousands of North Koreans to and from factories south of the DMZ to work for half the wages that Chinese workers earn. Then ask yourself who is being smart and who is being not-so-smart in this scenario. If you follow this line of reasoning far enough, it may start to dawn on you that in fact the anti-immigrationists are imposing far greater costs on this economy than the undocumented workers that they so incessantly complain over...
Hmmm. You start out with the usual "Show me any other country..." as if this were going to be some broad sort of challenge, and then somewhere along the line toss in the old "of 300 million people..." qualifier. There ARE only three countries in the world with a population of 300 million or more -- the US, India, and China. That's stacking the deck a little bit, as the 310 million people qualifier would do also, since that would kick the US out of the competiton. Now, any Indian can make exactly the same claims without any worry of India's being compared unfavorably to the US. The only allowed comparison left is to China.
As is the degree to which our cultures emphasize a "social contract" at all. The fact that it is wantonly shredded by profiteers and plunderers might therefore make more of a difference in one society than in the other.
Sounds to me more like walking the walk if you're going to go around talking the talk. Or maybe putting your money where your mouth is, or getting that beam out of thine own eye. I suggest that we re-examine our commitment to meeting what have long been our own principles and values. Once we have returned to meeting those on some reasonably consistent basis, we will be much more able honestly to confront the standards of the rest of the world, meeting those with either principled praise or principled disapproval.
Wrong forum for it, but we have not just invited, but essentially commanded these people to come. We just haven't handled it very well. Look into the rise and fall of the maquiladoras. Ask what those hundreds of thousands of displaced workers were supposed to do. Compare and contrast to what South Korea has been doing re bussing hundreds of thousands of North Koreans to and from factories south of the DMZ to work for half the wages that Chinese workers earn. Then ask yourself who is being smart and who is being not-so-smart in this scenario. If you follow this line of reasoning far enough, it may start to dawn on you that in fact the anti-immigrationists are imposing far greater costs on this economy than the undocumented workers that they incessantly complain over...
Thanks for your reply...Can't argue with the fact that the US has done a poor job, compared to the job the job it might have done, if it were a better place...no disagreement there at all.
Numerous posts talk about the world hating the US because of special freedoms that no one else apparently possesses.
My question is what are these special and magical freedoms?
I believe that many people from other countries are jealous of our standards of living and the opportunities that we have. I believe it's more about that than freedoms.....
I believe that many people from other countries are jealous of our standards of living and the opportunities that we have. I believe it's more about that than freedoms.....
This I can agree with. In terms of raw capitalism, it is difficult to find a suitable alternative. However, the next administration may very well take care of that by villifying capitalism for somehow causing the housing depression.
I believe that many people from other countries are jealous of our standards of living and the opportunities that we have. I believe it's more about that than freedoms.....
I guess I've always had a cynical outlook, but I agree with this. It may not explain everything, may not excuse our responsibility, but it certainly IS a factor..it's just plain human nature to resent the smug, arrogant "rich guy", period. Such envy occurs in all societies, whether it's 'condoned' or not. It happens in the workplace, it happens in the classroom, and it happens in the arena of world affairs.
Ever hear the old expression in EVERY old "tough guy" movie ever written, "Wipe that SMILE off your face"? It's saying, in essence "you're rich--or good-looking--or happy...And I'm not. I'm poor, plain-looking, and frustrated, and I want to PUNCH YOU OUT"....It's as human as any quality, and it begins in early childhood, the desire to 'deflate' the pompous, the smug, and to 'topple' the self-satisfied right off their 'pedestal'.
And that's us.
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Sorry. I can be kinda snarky and sarcastic at times. I just get a little irritated at times when I detect conspiracy theories. Honestly, messed up as our government is, I'm happy. I have the ability to live my life however I want. All of these supposed limitations on my freedoms have had absolutely no effect on my life. I'm not complacent about this either, but I just don't see it.
