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I don't see how that differs much from your analysis of many US residents. And isn't it about time that "media bias" went the way of "soft on Communism"? Isn't there some sort of expiration-date on these sorts of tired clichés?
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Haha, so true. Those cliches get old quickly.
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Originally Posted by macmeal
On some points, though you're making my case. "We" have supported brutal dictatorships that "backed our interests", true enough. (forgetting, for a MOMENT, that their 'opposition' may have been EQUALLY brutal, if not WORSE)...and for that 'support", we're resented by the 'locals'. These same 'locals' don't resent Albania, or Estonia, or Sri Lanka, or Haiti.....but is that because these countries are 'nicer' than the USA, or is it simply because these countries are too small and weak to have ANY effect on the 'world at large', good OR bad?
I'm not quite sure you understand. The support is not just in moral/diplomatic support. The US government gave lots of money and arms to many of these oppressive governments. The opposition was generally popularly democratically elected. Your claiming that they would have been just as brutal is pure conjecture because they weren't in power and didn't rule in such a brutal fashion. Albania, Estonia, Sri Lanka, and Haiti don't have the means to give this support both in arms or monetary terms.
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Originally Posted by saganista
You want Freedom Fries with that? You want to tell us what WE should do about Hugo Chavez, that guy the people who live in Venezuela keep re-electing by large majorities? Better adjust to the fact that, as an actor on the world stage, the US is more than validly the subject, and sadly sometimes the target, of world opinion. A gated-community, members-only attitude just isn't going to cut the mustard anymore...
I'm generally sympathetic to your viewpoints, but I'm not sure that Hugo Chavez is such a great guy, as he has clearly moved in the direction of dictatorship.
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Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni
It's not about criticism, a lot of "critics" really do seem to hate America, take military action and historical events out context, and hold the US to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
For example, I often see these "critics" (I'm using quotation marks to refer to people who hide behind criticism, but actually have an ulterior motive) accuse the US of imperialism both past and present. While the United States has engaged in imperialism in the past and many of its current actions are questionable, it is no worse than many other countries in world. For example, Latin American nations have conducted more imperialism against each other than the US ever has. Bolivia lost its entire coast in a war with Chile in the 1930s, Paraguay had more than half of its population killed off by Brazil, Uruguay, and Argentina in the War of the Triple Alliance, and these are just a few examples. The people of Latin America killed each other on scale that would do the Middle East proud over land and resources, yet America is an imperialist bully when it sends in Marines to protect banana plantations. The nations that committed waged these are often portrayed as perpetual victims of American imperialism by numerous Leftists.
Another example is American relations with other countries. When the United States does business with Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile, or any country with a lousy human rights record, the "critics" often go on tirades about how the US is helping prop up these dictatorships. These are often the same people who complain about the embargo on Cuba and blame it on the poverty of Cuba. America is the bad guy for trading with Saudi Arabia and it's the bad guy for not trading with Cuba.
I'm not saying that I support any and all American foreign policy decisions. I generally don't like embargoes, they often negatively impact the civilian populace while allow dictators to live a life of luxury and blame all problems on the embargo. I think the US should have pressured Pinochet to respect human rights and encouraged him to make the move towards democracy quicker. I think the Bush Administration has had the worst diplomatic skills of any Presidency in living memory, its almost as if they want everyone to disagree with them.
It's one thing to do business with Pinochet, it's another to help him come to power. The US government did both.
I don't disagree that many of those countries spent a lot of time killing each other, but that has nothing to do with US imperialism.
I'm not sure how I feel about embargoes, but I support a case-by-case decision. If an embargo against an oppressive regime brings about change with minimal harm to the population, I support it. If the embargo harms the population with no change, I'm not so sure.
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Originally Posted by saganista
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Yeah, the Civil War was one of our great moments. We should do that more often...
So true...
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Originally Posted by momlady530
Very valid point. Yes, I have children. Yes, sometimes they infuriate me. But I can complain about them because I live with them every day. I know them inside and out. And no, my complaining about them does not mean I love them any less or that I'm any less willing to defend them with my life.
What irks the bejesus out of me is the 2 people on here who do not live in this country yet take it upon themselves to cut America down. Its one thing to point out the faults of your own country (or children), but its completely different for someone who doesn't even live here to complain about things of which they know nothing.
I don't agree with your general viewpoint, but I do understand your feeling offended. True--it's OK to criticize your own children, but it's usually out of line to criticize others' children (absent outrageous behavior).
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Originally Posted by saganista
Quite so, but there is a difference in degree. The former is complete bunk, while the latter comprises an incomplete, but accurate, explanation.
Much of the worst that the Bush administration has done in its grossly inept prosecution of the so-called War on Terror is highlighted by the remainder of your post. This war is for the support and sympathies of those 99.99% of Muslims who are modern, moderate, and practical in their thinking. We win when this Muslim community no longer has room for or tolerates, much less supports, the actions of the extremists in its midst. We win when we are able to demonstrate and convince that we really do represent the ideals that we say we stand for. Instead, Bush has consistently chosen to act so as to demonstrate and convince that we in fact represent the very ideals that Osama bin Laden et al say we stand for. Who is this helping? Torture, kidnappings, indiscriminate rapes and killings, plunderous lawlessness and disrespect, and a military subjugation and occupation that has failed to maintain or produce even the very basics of a decent human society. More people in the Muslim world think poorly of us today than did when this war started. More people in the non-Muslim world think poorly of us today than did when this war started. How is this advancing the cause of anyone not living in a cave somewhere in the tribal lands along the Afghan-Pakistani border? The grave tragedy of the day-to-day failures of this war from its inception is exceeded by the tragedy of an apparent failure by this administration even to realize that it has been playing on this higher plane. We will unfortunately now be a generation and more in attempting to repair the damage that Bush has done...
Yep, very true.
Also, just to clarify, my answer was not limited to the Middle East. None of the dislike many people around the world feel towards the US has anything to do with any "freedoms" we may or may not have, it is almost entirely related to US foreign policy. Many European countries have developed a strong dislike for the US with the Iraq war--which freedoms do you think they might be missing.
Having said that, it's true that in many Muslim countries the dislike is not just because of US foreign policy--there are some who do dislike Western freedoms, but they really hate Europe as well, not just the US. And US foreign policy is pushing more moderates into this corner as well.
What irks the bejesus out of me is the 2 people on here who do not live in this country yet take it upon themselves to cut America down. Its one thing to point out the faults of your own country (or children), but its completely different for someone who doesn't even live here to complain about things of which they know nothing.
I've mentioned this many times. It's a function of having a free and open society, and a bit of a "puritan guilt" built into our culture. The simple fact is that criticizing America pays off...you get a lot of "bang for your bucK". We'll listen, we'll react, and it's easy to make is feel 'bad".
Somewhere there may be an internet forum of people who have complasints against Pakistan, or Mexico, or Syria...but my hunch is, they don't have many contributors, because when you criticize places like THAT, there's no "feedback"..these places simply don't CARE who likes them or who doesn't. We do...
we live in a broken down system where we are virtually powerless to voice which programs our tax $$$ will be spent on. big gov't decides for that for us too.
I know this is off subject and I am sorry but I feel we do have a voice. It is called voting. Vote all those crooks out and vote in people who will fairly govern this nation the way it should be done.
There should be limits to the terms Senators and Congressman can serve, just like the President. They get way to focused on how much money they can make, and to make sure they can get re-elected. A 90 year old Senator cannot be doing anyone any good, let alone to the state / district he is representing.
We have the voice in this country, and we can vote anyone out of office we want.
The best candidate for this election is Ron Paul IMO, but he will never see the light of day. And even if he did get elected, the House and Senate would not push any of his bills through. That is where the real power lies.
Again sorry for being off subject, just thought I needed to say it.
It's one thing to do business with Pinochet, it's another to help him come to power. The US government did both.
I don't disagree that many of those countries spent a lot of time killing each other, but that has nothing to do with US imperialism.
I'm not sure how I feel about embargoes, but I support a case-by-case decision. If an embargo against an oppressive regime brings about change with minimal harm to the population, I support it. If the embargo harms the population with no change, I'm not so sure.
I think you are underestimating the forces opposed to Allende. There would have most likely been a coup regardless of what the US had to say about it. Allende was the Chavez of the 1970s and the majority (despite him winning the election, he only got about a third of the vote) of people were starting to lose patience with him, plus his siding with Cuba and Soviets made a lot of people nervous, it was only a matter of time before something big happened.
As for the actions of South American countries, yes, it has nothing to do with US imperialism, but it does go to show that if anything US "imperialism" has probably saved more lives in Latin America than ended. It also goes to show that most people who complain about imperialism hold the US to a higher standard. When pretty much every country is doing what your doing, why be singled out?
Did you want to claim that intermittent garbage crises in particular European cities were actually relevant to the point?
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Originally Posted by JTraik
Yeah... Oh and they have no problem burning the stuff either.
Neither do we.
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Originally Posted by JTraik
Other countries must like streets cleaner than their bodies, most of the odious people I have met have been European. Americans and Asians tend value hygiene the most.
I'm sure you've researched the topic carefully and have fully earned the authority you claim in making such a statement...
The first time I left this country (which was more than 40 years ago) the thing that truly shocked me once I returned was the staggering amount of litter we allow to be cast all over the place. Many foreign countries simply have more self-respect than that...
Private property ownership - anyone can own property (real) - anywhere. And, as much as they can afford.
Yes, through extorting monies from the rich and middle class alike - ala socialist programs like FHA. Even former communist Russia and Romania have a less socialist flat tax system than ourselves not allowing special deductions for mortgage interest or hybrid vehicles. I would argue that in this particular case, you are more free in Russia because the government isn't trying to engineer through incentives how you should live your life.
Please, spare me the nonsense of "if you like Russia's policies so much, why don't you live there?". That's just propoganda and akin to putting the flag in front of your eyes as you speak. I am seeing the restriction of property rights through eminent domain unfolding. Not just for public projects "for the greater good" either, but for private development and corporate interests. This further damages the illusion that your home is your castle.
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If you want a very small home - that is your right.
See above. It is your entitlement bought for by the rich and middle class through a welfare program disguised as the "American Dream" of homeownership. Now we're seeing the destruction of the American Dream unfolding partly as a result of cramming homeownership down the throats of people who never deserved to be in one.
Also, don't confuse right with privilege. You don't have the right to a home, you have the privilege of earning a living to purchase one. Agencies such as FHA have transitioned this as more of a welfare/entitlement program.
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If you want a REALLY big home - that is your right.
I'm sure there are plenty of other socialist programs that confirm your entitlement theory.
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You are not told how to live - unless you want to be told same.
Your wages are taxed. There are other countries in the world that only derive taxes from corporate activity and consumption. It's none of the government's business if I get paid a few hundred dollars to paint someone's room. Even worse, if I'm paid in barter such as wine, concert tickets, etc, supposedly I must declare the value of this barter as income.
Also, try to establish a competing currency backed by silver instead of "good feelings" and see if the FBI doesn't shut you down. (google: liberty dollars)
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Freedom to choose to have no children - or a 100
Sure thing. $1000 per child courtest of the rich and middle class. Replicated by few other countries. Social engineering. I also know of few countries limiting # of children.
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Freedom to go where you want - when you want - and how you want
I've seen very few countries who've limited this particular right. This is feel good nationalism propoganda that was appropriate during the cold war and a non-sequitor today.
We've sacrificed freedoms so slowly over the past few decades, it's no wonder it's not noticable by citizens everywhere. Think boiling a frog.
Last edited by ViewFromThePeak; 02-24-2008 at 11:57 AM..
Saudi Men Busted for Flirting With Women in Public
Saudi Arabia began interrogating 57 men Saturday who were arrested after allegedly flirting with women in front of a shopping mall in the holy city of Mecca, a local newspaper reported.
The country's religious police arrested the men Thursday night, alleging behavior that included dancing to pop music blaring from their cars and wearing improper clothing, according to the Okaz newspaper, which is deemed close to the government.
Ya know, it's a sad day when blind patriots try to defend a corrupt increasingly socialist government like ours instead of questioning it, then use an example involving a contemptable country with draconian laws such as Saudi Arabia to make ours look better.
These "cliches" should indeed disappear once media bias against the real American way of life disappears.
The real American way of life being defined, I presume, by NewsMax articles, Norman Rockwelll paintings, and Constitutional interpretations that were discarded more than a century ago.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
I haven't seen this occurring as of yet.
Don't wait up.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Economic freedom, the right to bear arms as was mentioned earlier, and the amount of innovation developed here are all aspects of life in the U.S. worthy of envy.
Few in this country favor unregulated economic freedom or an unrestricted right to bear arms. Meanwhile, our health care system is a disgrace, and to hear the right-wing tell it, our educational system is as well. Our public finances are simply a mess, our public infrastructure is headed toward being non-existent, our foreign policy is a joke, our environmental policies promote exploitation and degradation, we have the least efficient transit systems in the developed world, we have the highest income-disparities and the highest rates of incarceration in the developed world, our currency is next to worthless in historical terms, and all the while, we continue to spend more on national defense than the entire rest of the world combined. How much of this is worthy of envy again?
The discussions earliest in this thread are 100% correct IMO.
The United States is extraordinarily free in some respects (mainly speech and expression) and a borderline police state in other respects (the sheer number of laws we have on the books regulating almost every aspect of human behavior, any one of which can be used to detain, incarcerate or penalize someone)
I believe the essence of our problem is that our "legal safety net" - the breadth of laws that the system can invoke in order to penalize a citizen - is far wider than our "social safety net" that tends to place the onus of value upon the citizen itself and often times stands as a safeguard against the citizen doing anything wrong.
I hate even saying the phrase "social safety net" because it's a typical leftist catch phrase that's usually cited in the context of making those who succeed pay for those who don't. I disagree with that. Still, basic frameworks that value the citizen over the system are essential, yet we've been disregarding and undoing them for the past 50 years, starting right about the time when our fundamental philosophies about the application of justice changed to a more aggressive, controlling, "system oriented" one.
With our legal safety net being as large as it is, it regularly ensnares otherwise good citizens and adversely impacts their lives, yet we as a society tend to overlook those occurances, simply because there's always some horrendous example of a sex offender or murder to satiate our "cowboy justice" desires and distract away from the intellectual matters.... So some kid got royally screwed by the system. We need things this way BECAUSE WHAT ABOUT WILLIE HORTON!!!!!!!
Really, I think our greatest problem is our laws, the sheer amount of them, the nature of the people who we pay to enforce them (starting at the bottom with cops, up to lawyers, further up to judges and legislators, etc), etc. It's a carnival of personality disorders, all working together to screw us on a daily basis- well, I'll give the cops a pass on that one. I don't think they're working to really screw people, I just think the people we hire to do that job are horrendously under qualified and their ability to make fluid, abstract decisions in certain circumstances is beneath any given retard.
Still, it makes me wince to hear our freedoms being lauded when compared to Cuba or China. If we are to purport ourselves as "the land of the free", then we ought to be able to achieve a higher standard than that
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