Crops in California going to rot due to immigration crackdown (salaries, ethical)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Who is this post in reference to? You sound like you completely made up a person and an argument.
If it's to me (I brought up the American people's willingness to pay more for their goods - an issue CENTRAL to offshoring and companies seeking cheaper labor around the world/country), I suppose I'll respond...but just be aware, you are putting words in people's mouths that were never spoken/written. That is a very bad thing to do in a debate - please adjust your tactics and just address the words that people speak/write (just some friendly advice).
I want what you want. I don't want these people to work in horrible conditions. I want them to be legal citizens or legal immigrants, and I want them to be paid more (a legal, fair, and hopefully "living" wage).
I want that AND I'm willing to pay for it. I will pay more for my produce and other agriculture goods (I don't really eat meat anymore (been years now), but I eat plenty of cheese and other animal-related). I already do this for as many goods as I can in this world, and I would love to be able to do this for my food, too.
Why do I bring up price? Because it is highly relevant to why these kind of things are happening in the first place. We as Americans (nothing to do with politics, by the way) want, as a whole, cheap goods. It's why Wal-Mart, Target, and Amazon are so successful, and why local versions of those stores are hurting tremendously in the face of that competition.
I personally don't subscribe to "cheap is better" - but many do. And that's a problem when you want an entire industry to move away from cheap labor (which I want). So, with this very real issue in mind, how do we solve this problem? I agree, going after people that employ illegal immigrants or pay under-the-table wages should be targeted heavily. Legal people should do that work, instead. Or automate it, if needed.
But we need to be realistic - prices will likely have to go up. Or the companies need to take a smaller cut. Realistically, a company will not just willingly do that...so prices go up. Are we aware of this? Are we going to pay these higher prices? If not - then what?
This matters and cannot just be brushed to the side as some political argument - get out of your political "black and white" nonsensical argument loop. This isn't about being "liberal" or "conservative" - it's simply about wanting people who make the goods that we consume to be treated well and paid fairly - and us being willing to pay for that (or at least, be aware of its cost on the system). Many of these costs are currently being externalized and not being looped into the total price that we pay for these goods (think: tax breaks for companies, subsidies, or external costs like pollution being thrown into the atmosphere for cheap goods today at the expense of tomorrow's environment, etc.).
Also, slightly outside of the scope of this discussion, but a good read (further illustrating how difficult of a problem this is to solve, globally - companies WILL try to get around paying for expensive labor - they just will. It sucks, but this is the real reality we have to address!!): The Myth of the Ethical Shopper - The Huffington Post
lol
Not everything is about you. You apparently haven't visited the same threads that I have in the last 2 days, let alone the 7 years I've been a member on this forum. I've seen people say that they want the "Mexicans" to stay because "they clean toilets and pick the fruits and vegetables" and without them, we would have to pay higher prices for fruits and vegetables.
Not one damn bit of concern for the terrible conditions that those "Mexicans" have to live in. (Because apparently every single person who picks crops is a Mexican according to some posters on this forum.) All they cared about was that they would have to pay higher prices. No concern for the people themselves. And I look up posting history when someone says something so fricken stupid. The ones who are pro-illegal aliens, who are so concerned about having to pay more for produce have been, by and large, liberals.
That is who that was addressed to. The many people that I have seen on this forum say idiotic crap like that. If I wanted to address just you, I would have addressed you. You are one person, there's more than one saying the stupid things above.
I have no problem paying more for anything if it means that it's not being done by an illegal, or it means our jobs were not sent to another country.
Made in America not only employes Americans in this country, it's also usually built a whole lot better than it's built in other countries on the cheap. I don't understand why anyone would want to keep paying for the same item over and over again when it breaks over and over again. Why not buy it once, because it's built very well, and it lasts for years and years. That's what you get when it's Made In America.
If you want quality, you're going to have to pay for quality. But the good news is, you don't have to keep buying it. You buy it once. That cuts down on the amount of people going to Wally World every fricken weekend. That cuts down on pollution. That cuts down on waste on the streets and in our landfills. That means those people have more time to do other things, or spend their money on other things. And in my experience, you typically get far better customer service when you get someone in this country than if you get someone in another country. So everyone is happier.
But aside from all of that, the worst thing about illegal aliens is that they are treated like garbage. No, I don't want them in this country. That does not, however, mean that I think they should be up on the roof of a building in the extremely hot, blazing sun for 14 hours while they repair a roof. It does not mean that I believe they should be doing back breaking labor in the dry, dusty fields, again in the boiling hot sun, picking heads of lettuce or apples off of a tree. That does not mean that I believe they should be paid just a couple of bucks an hour for that type of work...it doesn't require a lot of thinking, but it's physically demanding, and they deserve more than a couple of bucks for that, don't you think? NO ONE deserves to be treated like that. We don't even allow prisoners in prisons or during war time to be treated that badly, yet we have a segment of our population who thinks that there's nothing wrong with it because all they care about is their toilet getting scrubbed and having a cheap head of lettuce.
If you aren't in that camp, then I am not talking to you.
This is only partly true. The farmers who use the guest program have lots of difficulty getting the folks they need because the visa process takes so long and is so complicated.
There's no fast lane for those who want the ag visas; those who do have to undergo the same overlong, tortuous process all 'non-skilled' applicants have to go through.
Getting a visa is a lot easier for a person who is highly educated, is from the right country, or has some money. But if a person is poor and has little education, and doesn't have a fat back account, they have a very hard time coming when they are needed and going back home when they're not.
[Not all the farmers who hire illegals are sleazy. By a long shot. Those who are don't know squat about farming anyway, so they always lose the farm in the end.
I've seem some in action, and a crook is a crook. If they cheat their workers, they will leave a good farm in ruins, take off in the middle of the night, and leave the mess for the bank to try to clean up. They drive away in a Cadillac, but the roof on the farmhouse is always leaking and about to cave in.
That's the kind of people they are.
I live in farm country where good farmers know a good farm worker when they see one, and around here, when a good farmer has a good farm hand, he won't cheat him or exploit him; if that guy leaves, they both lose money.
Iv'e known many farmers who have done everything they can do to expedite work visas for their people. Many have gone the extra mile, and done what they could do to help those who want become citizens, and those who want to go back home can be allowed to come back to the same farm, over and over, working the crops when they're needed and return when they are not.
There are hundreds of farmers who have hired the same people year after year for decades, illegal or not. In the past, if a farm hand couldn't get a visa, just a note from the farmer was enough evidence to get them through the border, followed by a check-up after they arrived.
Families would come up to work our crops, go back to Mexico, and show up like clockwork the following year. A farmer who needed more help would call across the border and see if those folks had some cousins who wanted to join them.
They all get to know each other. It's a kind of mutual dependence that builds respect and friendships. And for years, it was no big deal.
We don't need a wall.
We need a quicker, smoother and easier way to allow those who want to work a way to get here on time for the job to be done. And then let them do their work without the need for looking over their shoulders for the immigration agents. And let them go home and come back in peace before planting time next year.
It's not hard. All it takes is some cooperation and a willingness to make it happen. Any citizen who wants a job still has a leg up on any immigrant- citizens can go seek farm work anytime they want with no hassles at all.
To respond to what I've bolded:
1) The visa program takes so long? Whoever said that doing the right thing is always the easy thing to do? If it takes a long time, then they need to plan ahead. Plus they need to talk to their reps and senators if they want it more streamlined.
2) All farmers who hire illegals are sleazy. They have a lot of excuses when it comes to not obeying the law. What worked in the past (a note from the farmer) no longer works now.
3) Yes, we do need a wall. Not everybody who is sneaking in is doing so to find work. There are many who sneak in to do us harm. Did you know that when Bill Clinton was president, he got a wall built between Tijuana and San Diego? And that wall drastically cut down on crime and illegal crossings.
4) Most Americans want full-time work, not seasonal. In the Heartland, high school kids often spend their summers doing farm work. That said, most unskilled Americans looking for work live in urban areas and don't have reliable transportation to the farms. Even if they did own a reliable car, the commute back and forth to the farm would probably eat up most---if not all---of their take home pay.
You are free to volunteer to take people to and from the farms.
1) The visa program takes so long? Whoever said that doing the right thing is always the easy thing to do? If it takes a long time, then they need to plan ahead. Plus they need to talk to their reps and senators if they want it more streamlined.
2) All farmers who hire illegals are sleazy. They have a lot of excuses when it comes to not obeying the law. What worked in the past (a note from the farmer) no longer works now.
3) Yes, we do need a wall. Not everybody who is sneaking in is doing so to find work. There are many who sneak in to do us harm. Did you know that when Bill Clinton was president, he got a wall built between Tijuana and San Diego? And that wall drastically cut down on crime and illegal crossings.
4) Most Americans want full-time work, not seasonal. In the Heartland, high school kids often spend their summers doing farm work. That said, most unskilled Americans looking for work live in urban areas and don't have reliable transportation to the farms. Even if they did own a reliable car, the commute back and forth to the farm would probably eat up most---if not all---of their take home pay.
You are free to volunteer to take people to and from the farms.
We need to leave the illegals who pick the fruit and vegetables alone and deport the one's that work in the frozen pizza and snack cake factories.
Why, when there are unlimited visas for legal, foreign crop pickers? Do you not realize that these greedy farmers just pocket the profits but pass their enormous social cost on to we the taxpayer? No illegals should be allowed to remain here for any reason whatsoever.
It's really quite simple. Honest farmers who use the agricultural guest worker visa (which has no caps on it) have no problems getting their crops picked. It's the sleazy farmers who refuse to use the visa program and instead opt for cheap, exploitable, illegal labor who have problems when the illegals freak out and scurry away. Those sleazy farmers reaped what they have sown.
So, what exactly, are you having trouble comprehending?
The twisting is Republicans suddenly caring for human rights for Mexicans of any sort. That now, in this thread, we're going to castigate the "bad farmer" (a very large percentage of whom are going to be Republicans) and we're going to be okay with inflation and we're going to want big government telling business owners what should be done.
My Uncle owns a farm in update NY. I was actually up at his farm this past weekend.
He has hired all American workers to help on the farm and he himself works on the farm (picking crops, feeding cows etc.) even though he is a retired multi millionaire from NYC area.
I asked him if the farm makes any money (as this is a retirement hobby more than a career) and he said that surprisingly the farm makes money.
Surprising, since the people he employs probably are paid well for farm standards.
Dug up a few onions while I was there, boy they were delicious!
Not everything is about you. You apparently haven't visited the same threads that I have in the last 2 days, let alone the 7 years I've been a member on this forum. I've seen people say that they want the "Mexicans" to stay because "they clean toilets and pick the fruits and vegetables" and without them, we would have to pay higher prices for fruits and vegetables.
Not one damn bit of concern for the terrible conditions that those "Mexicans" have to live in. (Because apparently every single person who picks crops is a Mexican according to some posters on this forum.) All they cared about was that they would have to pay higher prices. No concern for the people themselves. And I look up posting history when someone says something so fricken stupid. The ones who are pro-illegal aliens, who are so concerned about having to pay more for produce have been, by and large, liberals.
That is who that was addressed to. The many people that I have seen on this forum say idiotic crap like that. If I wanted to address just you, I would have addressed you. You are one person, there's more than one saying the stupid things above.
I have no problem paying more for anything if it means that it's not being done by an illegal, or it means our jobs were not sent to another country.
Made in America not only employes Americans in this country, it's also usually built a whole lot better than it's built in other countries on the cheap. I don't understand why anyone would want to keep paying for the same item over and over again when it breaks over and over again. Why not buy it once, because it's built very well, and it lasts for years and years. That's what you get when it's Made In America.
If you want quality, you're going to have to pay for quality. But the good news is, you don't have to keep buying it. You buy it once. That cuts down on the amount of people going to Wally World every fricken weekend. That cuts down on pollution. That cuts down on waste on the streets and in our landfills. That means those people have more time to do other things, or spend their money on other things. And in my experience, you typically get far better customer service when you get someone in this country than if you get someone in another country. So everyone is happier.
But aside from all of that, the worst thing about illegal aliens is that they are treated like garbage. No, I don't want them in this country. That does not, however, mean that I think they should be up on the roof of a building in the extremely hot, blazing sun for 14 hours while they repair a roof. It does not mean that I believe they should be doing back breaking labor in the dry, dusty fields, again in the boiling hot sun, picking heads of lettuce or apples off of a tree. That does not mean that I believe they should be paid just a couple of bucks an hour for that type of work...it doesn't require a lot of thinking, but it's physically demanding, and they deserve more than a couple of bucks for that, don't you think? NO ONE deserves to be treated like that. We don't even allow prisoners in prisons or during war time to be treated that badly, yet we have a segment of our population who thinks that there's nothing wrong with it because all they care about is their toilet getting scrubbed and having a cheap head of lettuce.
If you aren't in that camp, then I am not talking to you.
I don't disagree with your view points, and I'm a pretty liberal-leaning person. Your initial post implied a more "black and white" split along partisan lines. You did write this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow
I would like to know how anyone on the left can be ok with the fact that the illegals are out there in the hot sun for far more hours than is legal, bent over picking crops which is going to hurt your back after awhile no matter what age you are and how healthy you might be, and their living accommodations are tiny little shacks or huts, if they are lucky to have a building, many get tents, the ones I saw when I lived in WA state didn't even have glass where the windows were, and no a/c in the summer despite it being in Eastern WA which is hotter than hell for the west coast, they share those shacks or huts or tents with multiple people....
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow
The left doesn't like to talk about that. It makes them uncomfortable.
Answer: many of the liberals I know AREN'T OK with that fact. Actually. And many of the non-liberals I know aren't OK with it, either.
I don't think this line exists. There are people who disregard "illegal's" hard work and terrible living conditions on all sides of the political spectrum. It is not a "left" issue.
If you want to make this about "liberals" - feel free. But, I see it more as a societal-level issue. One dealing directly with our willingness (or unwillingness), as a country (and world for that matter), to pay the true price for goods produced/harvested by people getting paid fair and living wages.
This is a legitimate issue, and honestly has about "zero" to do with political ideology, in my opinion. It has everything to do with "cheap at all costs". We are addicted to cheap goods, and most of us largely could, unfortunately, care less how those goods came to us (unless those people are confronted with the realities of how those goods (see first few paragraphs) came to be, of course)
Last edited by HockeyMac18; 08-09-2017 at 05:18 PM..
"Don’t expect food prices to suddenly skyrocket despite what you’ve heard about crops rotting in the fields in California. A misleading story on NBC Nightly News has led several news outlets to report incorrect information about the state of California agriculture, sparking fears that food prices might soon rise due to a supposed labor shortage. The report highlighted “immigration fears” and claimed “a surge of arrests” by the Trump administration was partly to blame. The problem: the central fact relied on by NBC News to back up the anecdotes of the single farmer interviewed is two years old. The connection to current debates over immigration or the Trump administration is simply imaginary."
They put a figure of $13 million being lost in 2 counties based on a survey of members of the Grower-Shipper Association of Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo counties. What NBC neglected to mention was the survey was conducted in 2016 for conditions in 2015. In fact, they say the results of the survey for this year (2017) won't be available until 2018.
The $13 million is also questionable.
Now NBC only does about 21 minutes of national news per night (rest of time for commercials). This is the type of story they could have put on the air anytime this week meaning they had plenty of time to check out/verify facts in this so-called reporter's story and maybe they did. Maybe the whole operation is corrupt or incompetent because it has to be one or the other. Of course MSNBC only picked up the NBC story and Fortune magazine picked up the same as*hat story.
Why would there be a farm worker shortage when there are the unlimited H-2A visas they can use for legal foreign workers? Greed likely, and they and their illegal workers are feeling the heat of enforcement of our immigration laws and they don't like it. Tough!
I already addressed that, more than once. H-2A requires submitting the request far in advance of harvest, if they don't need all the workers they contract for they have to pay them 3/4 of the wages for the duration of the contract even though they won't be working. Farmers have to provide housing and transportation to and from the fields which is probably fine on a huge farm but not feasible for many smaller farmers.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
