America's unique gun violence (illegal, statistics, weapons, deaths)

[reed067]

You can a gun off Craigslist these days and everyone knows someone who will sale them a gun they want to get rid of. Your never going to be able to stop being from buying guns without a license. Period the government/ law enforcement can only do so much.

[yspobo]

Originally Posted by reed067

You can a gun off Craigslist these days and everyone knows someone who will sale them a gun they want to get rid of. Your never going to be able to stop being from buying guns without a license. Period the government/ law enforcement can only do so much.

Craigslist and similar venues have banned gun sales for years now.

[lvmensch]

Originally Posted by NY_refugee87

LOL there you defeating your previous arguments about rates and statistics again...

Which will it be.
The UK has lower statistics?
The AR15 kills less than hands fists feet knives?

Utterly different subject. ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination. Fine for cops and maybe limited use by armed protectors.

Statistics deal with the overall situation and show our situation is pretty absdurd if we are not getting some good out of the deaths we are taking.

It's good for hogs, economical for target and competition shooting, a good hobby to get into providing you aren't a felon or drug user or hold a conviction for domestic violence, a fugitive from justice, or guilty of any crime or adjudicated mentally defect.
Odd. My ARs, my sisters ARs, my girlfriends AR and AKs and millions of others haven't killed anyone...

More BS. If you are really dumb enough to get into a situation where 20 hogs are charging you I would think you should have your head examined. And If I was trying to stop charging hogs I would want a much heavier slug.

Actually, if the FBI did their job when my local gun store called them and told them of Mateen... and had pulled him in for questioning and temporarily held any NICS processing Orlando wouldn't have happened.
Actually if Campos was armed... or anyone on the 32nd floor was to engage paddock even if only drawing fire to provide people below the ample time to escape...

And if Campos was armed and had attempted to engage Paddock he would now be dead. And if Mateen had been restricted to his hadgun or even a rifle there would be a lot more people alivbe.

I wouldn't I have no desire to.



I have. A 12 gauge will inflict far superior damage to tissue and organs than a low mass high velocity carbine can.



Fun isn't it?



There's actually a process with the ATF to create lawful destructive devices as you mention. And yes. It is legal. No not the same problem with ARs...

That's apples or airplanes in comparison and you know it.

ATF process is tight and virtually impossible if you are not in the business. And a similar process for ARs would not be bad

[reed067]

Originally Posted by yspobo

Craigslist and similar venues have banned gun sales for years now.

Killing people in cold blood is too, has that stopped? No.

[NY_refugee87]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

Utterly different subject.

Only because it isn't conducive for your argument?
Aww there there... it will get better.

Originally Posted by lvmensch

Statistics deal with the overall situation and show our situation is pretty absdurd if we are not getting some good out of the deaths we are taking.

Oh wait you're trying again...
Nope. Still isn't working. Knives. Hands. Fists. Feet. Blunt force objects.


I think you're confused.
Statistic-a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of numerical data.


You state statistics don't apply due to utterly different topics. Then double down and claim there has to be good from the deaths? Do not mix the ambien with wine...

Your faux outrage is just that. Faux outrage.
Despite the fact and facts be damned, hands, blunt force objects, fist, feet, knines are responsible for MORE than ARs are. FACT Proof positive your outrage is not over anything that kills, you're only concerned with what the media and Politicians tell you.
That's why comparing automobile related deaths is relevant.
It shows in spite of the 37k tragedies that took place last year, there isn't any outrage or sign of concern. Why? No media frenzy over wrecks... no inflammatory language like "assault car assault truck assault suv"

Originally Posted by lvmensch

ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination. Fine for cops and maybe limited use by armed protectors.

Really... according the data... it says fists hands feet blunt objects and knives are more dangerous...
What is too dangerous for wide dissemination is liberal think. In that the heinous gets glossed over but it is their weapon that is the cause and responsible entity...

There are millions of them out there. And very few instances of them used in heinous acts...

Originally Posted by lvmensch

More BS.

That's rich. Coming from someone who can't make their mind up on "statistics"

Originally Posted by lvmensch

If you are really dumb enough to get into a situation where 20 hogs are charging you I would think you should have your head examined. And If I was trying to stop charging hogs I would want a much heavier slug.

I shot 5 girlfriend got 3 a couple months ago. Why would you want a heavier slug? Damage more tissue and meat? Over penetrate and damage property or risk worse?

Apparently you can't be anything but intellectually disingenuous by suggesting my head examined when you can not differentiate hunting from charging animals.
I'm not looking to infringe anyone's rights for any reason. Perhaps you should have your head examined...

Originally Posted by lvmensch

And if Campos was armed and had attempted to engage Paddock he would now be dead.

You don't know that. I don't know that. It never happened. But if you're so confident... got the winning PowerBall numbers so I can pay to round you all up and ship you to Canada with money in your pocket to boot?

Originally Posted by lvmensch

And if Mateen had been restricted to his hadgun or even a rifle there would be a lot more people alivbe.

Cherry picking again aren't we... yes or no the FBI dropped the ball when my gun store called them and reported him. Yes. Or no.

Originally Posted by lvmensch

ATF process is tight and virtually impossible if you are not in the business.

No not really...

Fill out the proper form. Pay the tax. Wait for the approval. And you have a legal destructive device.

Originally Posted by lvmensch

And a similar process for ARs would not be bad

There is. Back ground checks and process is similar.

[Floorist]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

Utterly different subject. ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination.

There is very little difference between an AR and the 22 semi-auto rifle I started shooting at age 8 in 1956. except for appearance, they are virtually the same. The 22 has a 27 rd mag and shoots once for each trigger pull. The typical AR uses a .223 round as opposed to the .22 LR round.

[NY_refugee87]

Originally Posted by Floorist

There is very little difference between an AR and the 22 semi-auto rifle I started shooting at age 8 in 1956. except for appearance, they are virtually the same. The 22 has a 27 rd mag and shoots once for each trigger pull. The typical AR uses a .223 round as opposed to the .22 LR round.

And you should have your head examined for standing up for criminal AR15s and preserving others rights to keep and bear them...

Because everyone who owns one is evil vile heinous plotting *yawns* to kill as many people as they can.

Oh wait... the gun is what kills.... it's the one that's plotting to kill as many as possible...

So if they disappear the criminals and heinous will find new ways to kill as many as possible.
So long as it wasn't done by an AR or gun that's okay. At least we got those guns away...

I have yet to understand the point in banning and restricting and curtailing the rights of all based on the actions of few... I don't get the false equivalency here. Do you?

Normally, well effectively, if you want to make a difference in behavior... you usually punish the ones responsible for their actions.
Not all for the actions of one...

Apply liberals logic to punishing law abiding to say their kids in school. Have 1 little prick in class, the whole class gets punished for that kids actions you bet your life savings the liberal will be down at that school threatening to pull their kid out of that class and tell the teacher and superintendent how wrong dumb stupid and asinine they are.

[rigby06]

This is an interesting article on the 1 shot for incapacitation/one shot kill ration for most pistol rounds, it also includes the 12 gauge shotgun. Or how many rounds it took for incapacitation; as it turns out the shotgun was 80% at the one shot for incapacitation (OUCH)


Now the .223 round is not included in this, from what I was able to quickly ascertain, but the .223 rounds is a larger 22 round with more gun powder, so the wound track would be increased, as would the incapacitation capabilities of the round. But I did not look up the difference between a 22 and the .223.


https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

[USMC1984]

Originally Posted by reed067

You can a gun off Craigslist these days and everyone knows someone who will sale them a gun they want to get rid of. Your never going to be able to stop being from buying guns without a license. Period the government/ law enforcement can only do so much.

What language is this? It's kind of like English but not really!

[NVplumber]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

This not hard stuff. If you have burglars and people stealing stuff from cars you are going to have guns stolen and released into the criminal world. If you have 300 million guns out there there is about 10 times the chance a gun will get to the criminals as there would be if there were 30 million guns. And of course you will have people who properly secure their guns and they will never get loose. But in any gun owner population there will be the weak sisters...like the BLM cop who lost his firearm in SF.

The argument for limiting or banning the AR class weapons is that their only purpose is killing people efficiently in large numbers. An effective limit might be on semi-automatic hand guns which are actually the criminals gun of choice. Leave revolvers and shotguns as defense weapons.

This schtick of the AR "only purpose being killing people efficiently in large numbers" has gotten pretty stale. I built my AR from the ground up as a varmint rifle. Yes, I hunt with it. It's the best coyote rifle I have ever owned. Pinpoint shot placement at 300 yards is no problem. I have 30 round mags for it but I use the two tens and a five when I take to a call set. I don't carry any more than that 25 rounds when varmints are the name of the game and I've never fired over 5 in an outing.


I also take it to the range often and punch paper with it thoroughly enjoying the sub MOA three shot strings it pulls in. I've also used it in service rifle competitions and three gun action matches. I didn't build it with combat use of any sort in mind. It's built for precision work and despite its space age looks and semi auto operation it turns out extreme precision.


I'm also currently working on a build in 243 Win with a spare barrel in 308 with deer and long range service rifle use in mind. In this rifle I will only use 3-5 shot mags. In those latter chamberings I can't see my ever needing more rounds on tap than that, but I will probably obtain a couple 20 rounders just cuz. I have 20s and 30s for my 5.56/223 rifle. There may come a time I might need them.


Point is these ARs have primary purpose that doesn't involve a firefight. Purpose they do and will perform above and beyond. The AR platform can deliver accuracy right up there with a good bolt action. The past three US service rifles, M1 Garand, M14/M1A and now the AR15/M16 have all been superbly accurate rifles and all lend themselves to far more purposes than combat.


With a large number of chamberings and many design modification available for the AR it is a VERY versatile and and superbly accurate platform. As Whelen said, "only accurate rifles are interesting" and the AR is VERY interesting.


It may have been originally designed with the battlefield in mind but so were the others I mentioned and they have all transitioned to use for hunting and competition. There is a defensive niche as well, with the AR being more suited to that than the Garand and M1A. It can be more readily fitted with shorter barrels and collapsible furniture. I often swap out barrels and butt stocks on my 5.56/223 for ease of carry when I'm just knocking about in the truck and I've even carried it on horseback.


So, I'm far from sold on this idea of the AR as being nothing but a bullet hose. That dog won't hunt. Matter of fact, if the day will boil down to a single well placed round getting the job done the AR is my go to. And I'm far from being the only shooter to feel thus.


Ironically I grew up holding disdain for the AR as the Man who taught me guns and shooting totally loathed the platform. That would be my Dad, who experienced the first run M16s in Viet Nam. He was forever jaded. When I branched out on my own and took an interest in the AR he curled his nose in the worst way. Even when I showed him sub MOA 200 yard targets he refused to accept the fact that they had fixed the ARs teething problems.


But, fixed them and then some they have. Like it or not the AR is Americas rifle. Suitable in one chambering or another for rolling tin cans to elk hunting and a plethora of uses in between. I have very high expectations for my 243/308 build and my 5.56/223 is a proven performer. So please spare me the "death machine" drivel. As most any serious shooter on here can attest to the AR is a precision tool. Just because it may take a 30 round magazine doesn't mean we take our black rifles out and fritter away expensive ammo shooting dirt as fast as we can pull the trigger and very few of us have combat as our primary use for these rifles.


Murder does not even come to consideration. It would seem that this is actually pretty hard stuff for some to get a grip on.