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This schtick of the AR "only purpose being killing people efficiently in large numbers" has gotten pretty stale. I built my AR from the ground up as a varmint rifle. Yes, I hunt with it. It's the best coyote rifle I have ever owned. Pinpoint shot placement at 300 yards is no problem. I have 30 round mags for it but I use the two tens and a five when I take to a call set. I don't carry any more than that 25 rounds when varmints are the name of the game and I've never fired over 5 in an outing.
I also take it to the range often and punch paper with it thoroughly enjoying the sub MOA three shot strings it pulls in. I've also used it in service rifle competitions and three gun action matches. I didn't build it with combat use of any sort in mind. It's built for precision work and despite its space age looks and semi auto operation it turns out extreme precision.
I'm also currently working on a build in 243 Win with a spare barrel in 308 with deer and long range service rifle use in mind. In this rifle I will only use 3-5 shot mags. In those latter chamberings I can't see my ever needing more rounds on tap than that, but I will probably obtain a couple 20 rounders just cuz. I have 20s and 30s for my 5.56/223 rifle. There may come a time I might need them.
Point is these ARs have primary purpose that doesn't involve a firefight. Purpose they do and will perform above and beyond. The AR platform can deliver accuracy right up there with a good bolt action. The past three US service rifles, M1 Garand, M14/M1A and now the AR15/M16 have all been superbly accurate rifles and all lend themselves to far more purposes than combat.
With a large number of chamberings and many design modification available for the AR it is a VERY versatile and and superbly accurate platform. As Whelen said, "only accurate rifles are interesting" and the AR is VERY interesting.
It may have been originally designed with the battlefield in mind but so were the others I mentioned and they have all transitioned to use for hunting and competition. There is a defensive niche as well, with the AR being more suited to that than the Garand and M1A. It can be more readily fitted with shorter barrels and collapsible furniture. I often swap out barrels and butt stocks on my 5.56/223 for ease of carry when I'm just knocking about in the truck and I've even carried it on horseback.
So, I'm far from sold on this idea of the AR as being nothing but a bullet hose. That dog won't hunt. Matter of fact, if the day will boil down to a single well placed round getting the job done the AR is my go to. And I'm far from being the only shooter to feel thus.
Ironically I grew up holding disdain for the AR as the Man who taught me guns and shooting totally loathed the platform. That would be my Dad, who experienced the first run M16s in Viet Nam. He was forever jaded. When I branched out on my own and took an interest in the AR he curled his nose in the worst way. Even when I showed him sub MOA 200 yard targets he refused to accept the fact that they had fixed the ARs teething problems.
But, fixed them and then some they have. Like it or not the AR is Americas rifle. Suitable in one chambering or another for rolling tin cans to elk hunting and a plethora of uses in between. I have very high expectations for my 243/308 build and my 5.56/223 is a proven performer. So please spare me the "death machine" drivel. As most any serious shooter on here can attest to the AR is a precision tool. Just because it may take a 30 round magazine doesn't mean we take our black rifles out and fritter away expensive ammo shooting dirt as fast as we can pull the trigger and very few of us have combat as our primary use for these rifles.
Murder does not even come to consideration. It would seem that this is actually pretty hard stuff for some to get a grip on.
Post is utter nonsense. Mosk is about to send a red Tesla to orbit the sun. You really think that makes a Tesla coupe an ultimate space vehicle?
On the contrary. The AR is a superbly accurate platform. It does however lack in stopping power.
I have both ARs and AKs, the AR is far more accurate than ANY AK I have.
However the AK has more stopping power. It's ballistics mirror that of the 30-30 out to 300 yards. After that it's dropping like Hilary on tour.
So. I built a pinker with a 7.62x39 upper.
With junk FMJ I'm seeing 1.5-2.5 groups at 100.
With fmjbt I'm seeing .5-1 inch groups at 100 with a free floated rail.
Best I can get out of any of my AKs. 2-3 inch groups.
Mediocre average is 3-5 inch groups.
Why does this matter?
When a hog has its head down. .223/5.56 In one ear and out the other. Dead before it hits the ground.
Or.
Punches through the shoulder, hits the heart and stops or stops in the lung.
It doesn't over penetrate. It doesn't make for a brutal wound cavity and blowing entrails all over the place from hydroshock/hydrodynamics. But of course... you wouldn't support my use in hunting with an AR. Nah. Use a slug and have a mess or miss.
Use a bigger round. And damage more tissue and meat while risking drastic over penetration?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch
Mosk is about to send a red Tesla to orbit the sun. You really think that makes a Tesla coupe an ultimate space vehicle?
Well... it would kind of have to be with metallurgy and synthetics to withstand those types of temperatures...
Due to the lack of an engine... the Occupants would have to have quite the amount of space for breathable air if it travels fast enough to get to the sun slingshot back off its gravity and head back to earth...
In which case... he might want to buy the rights from Ford to call it a Mercury.
Post is utter nonsense. Mosk is about to send a red Tesla to orbit the sun. You really think that makes a Tesla coupe an ultimate space vehicle?
Utter nonsense you say? LMAO, And would you care to respond with some actual facts and knowledge in refuting it, or should all good people just take your word for it, even knowing better? Since you are obviously an expert on the subject and have probably built more precision firearms in various platform than I please do enlighten us as to the specific reasons my post was utter nonsense.
Which parts of it do you find to be particularly ignorant regarding my experiences with the AR platform? Oh, but hey, don't get to technical on me, and start explaining in to much detail why the AR cannot be a precision shooting firearm. You know what I mean, technical jargon like the "little flippy thing on the side" or "the button that makes the box drop out" and other firearms terms that would just go over my head.
Fact of the matter is you are in way over your pay grade here. In all humility, I have been building and shooting various types of firearms for a LONG time. 1911 pistols and AR 15s have been my focus for a while now. So, I am honestly quite interested to hear what your rationale is behind saying my post is utter nonsense. Surely you must be capable of breaking it down for me. After all, if you know enough to claim the post is utter nonsense you must certainly be able to point out technical specifics.
Perhaps you have a degree in mechanical engineering, physics or some such related field that grants you a more vast array of knowledge regarding the AR 15 than a simple builder and shooter like me. Since you can without even knowing any design specifics for my rifles you can flatly and absolutely state that I'm just full of Sh** as to the levels of accuracy they are capable of.
Fact is,my 5.56/223 AR will outperform my Son's Rem VTR in 22 250 shot for shot. Especially in lengthy strings. That VTR is no slouch, but it likes to be swabbed out after three strings to maintain the MOA. My AR can hold steady for a lot more rounds fired. Maybe you could explain to poor ignorant me why that is? Or are terms like ballistic coefficient, sectional density and velocity to much for my brain to handle?
Truly and verily I am looking forward to you taking me to school here. Ive never met up with anyone who was so knowledgeable about firearms that they can just flat call BS on the capabilities of any given firearm without even knowing any of the specifications on it. You have a singular gift sir. Guys like Carlos Hathcock, Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, Hell John M Browning himself would be clamouring to worship at your alter.
So, have at it man. I yield the floor to you and await with baited breath to see your explanations as to why my post is "utter nonsense." So lets hear it. Pull out those technical stops and regale us with your unsurpassed knowledge of firearms. Cuz I'm saying your reply to the post in question is utter and complete nonsense and I'm a darin' you to prove otherwise.
On the contrary. The AR is a superbly accurate platform. It does however lack in stopping power.
I have both ARs and AKs, the AR is far more accurate than ANY AK I have.
However the AK has more stopping power. It's ballistics mirror that of the 30-30 out to 300 yards. After that it's dropping like Hilary on tour.
So. I built a pinker with a 7.62x39 upper.
With junk FMJ I'm seeing 1.5-2.5 groups at 100.
With fmjbt I'm seeing .5-1 inch groups at 100 with a free floated rail.
Best I can get out of any of my AKs. 2-3 inch groups.
Mediocre average is 3-5 inch groups.
Why does this matter?
When a hog has its head down. .223/5.56 In one ear and out the other. Dead before it hits the ground.
Or.
Punches through the shoulder, hits the heart and stops or stops in the lung.
It doesn't over penetrate. It doesn't make for a brutal wound cavity and blowing entrails all over the place from hydroshock/hydrodynamics. But of course... you wouldn't support my use in hunting with an AR. Nah. Use a slug and have a mess or miss.
Use a bigger round. And damage more tissue and meat while risking drastic over penetration?
Well... it would kind of have to be with metallurgy and synthetics to withstand those types of temperatures...
Due to the lack of an engine... the Occupants would have to have quite the amount of space for breathable air if it travels fast enough to get to the sun slingshot back off its gravity and head back to earth...
In which case... he might want to buy the rights from Ford to call it a Mercury.
In the 5.56/223 chambering I don't use my AR for anything over coyotes. But it handles them varmints quite well out to the 300 yard stick with the bullets I use. She's set up to use bullets in the 62 to 75 grain range with optimum performance being 68. I have a 16 and 24 inch upper for it. The 24 has a 4x12 Bushnell Sportview riding on it and the 16 has a 1x Bushnell dot and post.
The latter is for when I'm just knocking about the North 40 checking fences and such. The 24 gets put on when I getting into a call set and when I want to pop out some REALLY tight strings on paper at 200 yards. Though the 16 can pull it off quite well at 200 too.
When my 243/308 is finished I'll have a range of chamberings in an AR platform that will handle most anything on the N American continent as well as long range service rifle matches. The AR truly is Americas rifle of choice these days. From a rocky start it's morphed into a highly versatile and very accurate platform. Arguably the best out there.
Site wouldndt let me rep you. But I'll toss ya a +1 anyway. One AR fan to another.
Owning the Smith & Wesson MP15 (Smith & Wesson's AR15); and the Fabrique Nationale FN PS90; I would rate them as follows: These are both civilian rifles and only semi-automatic.
The S&W MP15 and FN PS90 are both equally accurate:
I would give the S&W MP15 easier to change magazines: The FN PS 90 requires allot of practice.
I would give the FN PS90 more maneuverable in close quarters since it is small in overall length then the AR15 even with the stock fully collapsed.
I have only ever punched paper targets so I can speak to the takedown power of either one.
The AR15 platform has multiple manufactures making both ammunition and add on accessories for the AR15: The FN PS90 only has a few manufactures making ammunition for it.
The FN PS90 is designed from the operator up, a totally ambidextrous right out of the box rifle, it has linear design, and it ejects the brass by use of gravity, it just drops the brass straight down; since it has a linear design it would also allow the shooter to be lying prone with a full magazine, a task that is a little bit more difficult with the AR15.
I would give the AR15 platform a definite edge in it's versatility and its configurations. the AR15 with the multiple rails it can support allows the connection of more devices then the FN PS90 does, unless you get the after market frame for the FN PS90
It would be a really tough choice as to which one is the overall better rifle. I like them both!!
I was speaking more to how criminal street gangs settle their "turf" wars than single acts of random violence. The image of a gang member wielding a switchblade carried inside his black leather jacket with his hair slicked back with bear grease has been replaced by a Glock inside baggy athletic wear riding inside a spinner rimmed Escalade rolling up for a drive by.
Switchblades are legal here again. They still have to be 3.5 inches or less to be carried in a pocket but nevertheless they are legal. That rolls back 4+ (closer to 5) decades of them being illegal. Illegal to carry anyway, no matter the length. Gangs meeting in the schoolyard after hours for a "rumble" where the most lethal weapons used might have been a switchblade are ancient history. Far more common are drive by's that spray rival slingers on a contested street corner.
Nope...this ain't "Happy Days" anymore. Gangs now use pilfered and smuggled full auto hardware now and there's BIG money motivating that methodology. Some punk with a switchblade is of far less concern than a dozen punks with automatic weapons hyped up on their own supply of marching powder.
Oh sure, knife and fist/blunt instrument assaults still happen, but overall with violent street gangs they prefer to spray down their turf fires with bullet hoses. Bullied kids are bringing guns to school. Time was not so long ago really that a kid bringing a gun to school to deal with the jocks pushing him around was unthinkable. Now it seems to be a daily occurance. Students have to walk through metal detectors just to get to class, and the streets surrounding schools are controlled by vicious gangs killing each other for the right to sling their poison to the student body.
Its more the latter sort of thing I was addressing in the post you quoted from.
" a dozen punks with automatic weapons"
Do you know in fact that this is true or are you just popping off?
If it is true, why haven't we seen or heard of any of it from the media?
With media liking to go 24/7 over any gun relate crime, I am surprised it is NOT on national media.
"About three-quarters (76%) of Democrats say the ease with which people can legally obtain guns contributes a great deal or fair amount to gun violence, compared with just 39% of Republicans.
By contrast, more than eight-in-ten Republicans (84%) and Democrats (88%) say the ease with which people can illegally obtain guns contributes a great deal or a fair amount to gun violence."
Seems some folks never tire of this subject, in fact the opposite, but I'm certainly tired of reading the same old circle of comments and insults to nowhere. I just noticed this thread highlighted because I commented in this thread some time ago. Also before that, I started a thread with this article that I still think pretty well sums it all up nicely...
Utterly different subject. ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination. Fine for cops and maybe limited use by armed protectors.
Statistics deal with the overall situation and show our situation is pretty absdurd if we are not getting some good out of the deaths we are taking.
More BS. If you are really dumb enough to get into a situation where 20 hogs are charging you I would think you should have your head examined. And If I was trying to stop charging hogs I would want a much heavier slug.
And if Campos was armed and had attempted to engage Paddock he would now be dead. And if Mateen had been restricted to his hadgun or even a rifle there would be a lot more people alivbe.
ATF process is tight and virtually impossible if you are not in the business. And a similar process for ARs would not be bad
"ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination."
"ARs are simply too dangerous for wide dissemination."
Explain why.
The AR-15 is no different from any other semi auto hunting rifle that accepts a magazine. It is a very commonly used rifle, THE most common in the U.S. It is used widely for hunting, target shooting, competition, and home defense. It scares Urban, Liberal/Progressives, because they have no experience with them, and fear all guns.
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