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All governments are pursuing the same ends. The difference in means is the result of different circumstances.
You are not free. Or at least, you are only free to do "good". The moment your freedom threatens the interests of the "state", you will cease to be free.
To whatever extent that your freedom is either real, or an illusion, is only to the extent that your perceived freedom is beneficial to the state.
If the state could become more powerful by enslaving you, you would be a slave. The most-powerful state rules the rest. Thus, if slavery created power, then slave-states would always conquer free-states, until there were no free-states left(IE most of pre-industrial history).
We didn't win WWII with freedom and democracy. We won it with guns, and bombs, and money. And the soldiers weren't volunteers, they were conscripts, forced to fight "for their country". And conscription is just another form of slavery.
If you imagine Russia as an institution, or an organism. It needs to do certain things to survive. It needs to be able to defend itself. And in a Darwinian world, it needs to become as powerful as possible.
And not just Russia, but everyone. America needs to be as powerful as possible. China needs to be as powerful as possible. Saudi Arabia needs to be as powerful as possible. And power, in this world, comes mostly from money. Which is why the #1 priority for all governments is "economic growth".
Whatever evils you think Russia is committing, they are doing so only out of necessity. Putin isn't the devil, he is just another Machiavellian, in a long line of Machiavellians.
The actions of Putin and the KGB have a greater purpose. The entire world operates through a geopolitical and economic dimension. Domestic policy is always shaped by foreign policy. And national security always comes before everything else.
Freedom, rights, democracy, equality, and virtue, will always be sacrificed in the name of national security. It doesn't matter if it is America, or Russia, or China, or anywhere else. It is always the same.
If you think Russia is fundamentally different than America, you don't know anything.
I could not disagree with you more wholeheartedly.
So would my ancestor, who at the age of seventeen spent the winter at Valley Forge with George Washington and his troops.
So would my other ancestors, who immigrated from Ulster to America in 1790.
So would my French Huguenot ancestors, who came to the Virginia Colony in 1700.
The first fought for freedom and democracy. The second ancestors came here for economic and personal freedom. The last group came here for religious freedom and freedom from persecution unto death for their religious beliefs.
All found here what they sought. I intend to honor my ancestors and honor my country's roots and highest aspirations, and to continue to serve my country with my skills and talents.
To equate the historically high ideals of the United States of America with the history and current state of Russia is to demonstrate both ignorance of our own history and roots (in the 18th century Age of Reason) and enormous cynicism and degradation approaching that of Putin's supporters.
Putin is a murderer, a thief, and a liar.
No one of his ilk has yet presided over the United States of America, nor has our governmental system ever previously allowed such distortions of the foundations of our democracy to prevail. We have elected weak and deeply flawed presidents previously, no one can deny that - but our democracy has continued, only temporarily impeded by the results of such weaknesses and flaws.
Like loves to watch child pornography and rape children bad? Seems there is an endless amount of hate against him when at worst he's guilty of having his friends make facebook posts against Hillary.
Because of Putin, hundreds of small disabled children have died due to neglect in countless orphanages and institutions across Russia. Because of Putin, hundreds of small children have been killed in eastern Ukraine. Because of Putin, thousands of children are suffering malnutrition, cold, and illness due to his invasion of eastern Ukraine and occupation of Crimea. Because of Putin, countless Russian orphans have been denied loving adoptive homes in the United States and other countries which have their own Magnitsky Acts.
As for whether Putin is a pedophile, there's a disgusting video out there showing Putin pulling up the shirt of a small Russian child (the little boy appears to be about six years old) and kissing him on the bare stomach. Very weird behavior for a supposedly normal man to engage in, in public, and it raises questions about just what Putin feels free to do when not publicly observed.
If you think the worst Putin has done is arrange for nasty things to be written on Facebook in regard to Hillary Clinton, I suggest you look further and educate yourself.
All governments are pursuing the same ends. The difference in means is the result of different circumstances.
You are not free. Or at least, you are only free to do "good". The moment your freedom threatens the interests of the "state", you will cease to be free....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek
...To equate the historically high ideals of the United States of America with the history and current state of Russia is to demonstrate both ignorance of our own history and roots (in the 18th century Age of Reason) and enormous cynicism and degradation approaching that of Putin's supporters....
I’m going to split the difference between the two of you. Yes, all states are fundamentally alike, in aiming to maximize their own endurance, survival and prosperity. But the meaning of these attributes isn’t uniform or invariant with time. All states have a compact between the government and the governed, where the governed surrender certain key rights, in exchange for partaking of the societal benefits (such as commerce or division of labor) secured by the state. But states different starkly, in the emphasis on rights retained vs. rights surrendered, in the emphasis between the dignity of the individual and the majesty of the state itself.
Russia’s history is an uncheckered (and largely unchecked) string of autocracies. America on the other hand was always skeptical of centralized authority, and never venerated said authority as a desirable end in itself. But both countries fought WW2 with conscripts. Both had (and continue to have) strong propaganda machines, praising their respective nations as being the best. Both nations have a strong core of self-styled patriots, who keep intoning, “My nation, right or wrong”.
Both Russia and America have spy agencies and massive apparatus of surveillance. It’s true that an American is far less likely than a Russian, to end up getting dragged into a dank basement by masked agents of the state, getting tortured until a confession is extracted. This is no small difference. America has a justice-system of due-process. But let’s not be naïve about how the proverbial deck is stacked. Process matters, but ultimately, if you’re going to end up on a docket, where the case is titled “United States of America vs. so-and-so”, then overwhelmingly, so-and-so is going to lose.
We are all slaves, to the ineluctable necessity of living together. Nobody is entirely independent and unaccountable to others. How much of that accountability is gingerly and deferentially mediated by the state, and how much is an extra burden imposed by a rapacious state? There is a difference, and this difference varies depending on the nation. They’re NOT all alike. But neither are they qualitatively incommensurable. There is assuredly more freedom in America, than in Russia; more in Russia, than in North Korea. But no society is truly “free” – not even tribesmen in the Amazonian jungle, for they have their own tribal counsels and traditions and taboos.
As CraigCreek points out, the American system has safety-valves and compensatory controls, such that true monsters can’t reach high office, and monstrous aspirations of leadership generally do get thwarted before causing real harm. Russia lacks this, not only because it lacks the bureaucratic procedure for such safety-valves, but because it never developed a cultural consciousness where such valves are regarded as being essential and intuitively imperative. Russia therefore has no real defense against government by monsters. Nevertheless, all nations – no matter how enlightened – impose upon the individual the explicit responsibility for allegiance to the government, for duties of citizenship and participation in the tribal mandates. To CraigCreek’s example, just imagine what would have happened to his Colonial-era ancestor, had that individual announced, “A pox on both the British and on the Colonials! I am my own man, I serve no one, and I fight for no one, save for my own self!” Before long, one or another of the antagonists’ armies would have accosted this individual, in terms rather removed from neighborly politeness.
To equate the historically high ideals of the United States of America with the history and current state of Russia is to demonstrate both ignorance of our own history and roots (in the 18th century Age of Reason) and enormous cynicism and degradation approaching that of Putin's supporters.
Putin is a murderer, a thief, and a liar.
No one of his ilk has yet presided over the United States of America, nor has our governmental system ever previously allowed such distortions of the foundations of our democracy to prevail. We have elected weak and deeply flawed presidents previously, no one can deny that - but our democracy has continued, only temporarily impeded by the results of such weaknesses and flaws.
It will continue, and we will thrive.
maybe you should read U.S. History again and stop throwing stones when we live in a glass house.
I don't apologize for our history, it is what it is but it makes you hypocritical when you call Putin a murderer, thief and a liar when we had Presidents that fit that description and worse.
During Russian elections, there were international election monitors, did they claim Putin didn't win?
During American elections, didn't the polls show Hillary won? Even the exit polls? Why isn't Hillary president?
International observers (when they haven't been kicked out) have repeatedly detailed irregularities and concerns with the Russian electoral process.
An anachronism in US elections resulted in the loser winning. But that anachronism is part of US law (until changed).
This rating puts US elections at "very high" integrity, with a rating of 61 (comparable to Peru, Lesotho, and South Africa). Russia is rated 44, or low/very low (comparable to Iraq, Algeria, or Sudan).
Methodological information is available at the link.
American media is controlled by:
Associated Press (independent)
Time Warner (CNN)
Comcast-NBC Universal (the NBC family of companies)
NY Times (independent, primary owner is the Ochs-Sulzberger family)
Washington Post (owned now by Jeff Bezos of Amazon)
The Australian Murdoch family (Fox News, Wall Street Journal)
Gannett Company (USA Today)
You could add a host of online companies (ranging from Facebook & Google to Huffington Post, etc.). Numerous international companies have significant US market share in the news space (like BBC, Reuters, Agence France Press, Al Jazeera, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
As for this supposed balance/separation of powers, I'm not even sure what you are talking about. Why are a bunch of lawyers on the Supreme Court, balanced by a bunch of lawyers in Congress? And aren't the lawyers on the Supreme Court, chosen and confirmed by the president and Congress? On what basis do they choose their appointees?
In order to have a balance of powers, it would require multiple classes of people with opposing interests. A bunch of millionaires and billionaires making deals with each other is hardly a balance or a check on anything.
Lawyers are on the Supreme Court because the Court's role is to interpret the law. People who are trained in law are most likely to be appointed and confirmed to interpret it.
Congress includes a variety of critters, including lawyers. Presidents choose appointees. They can choose as they please. The Senate confirms.
Those Congresscritters are elected by the public. That President is elected by the public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
The oligarchs you refer to, are just the Russian billionaires. The CEO's of corporations. They have the power in Russia, because they have the money.
Russia's position is right around countries like Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Guatemala, and Myanmar. Russia's billionaires are politically connected oligarchs. The source of their wealth is the State.
It is not hard to distinguish between two different things. One flawed thing can still be better than a second thing, dramatically more flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
And who do you think has the power in America? You? Give me a break.
It is the same everywhere. Some are just more obvious than others.
Some are better than others. Some are much worse than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999
maybe you should read U.S. History again and stop throwing stones when we live in a glass house.
I don't apologize for our history, it is what it is but it makes you hypocritical when you call Putin a murderer, thief and a liar when we had Presidents that fit that description and worse.
It is acceptable to make judgments about a political system, like that of Russia, that is far more corrupt and autocratic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
All governments are pursuing the same ends. The difference in means is the result of different circumstances.
You are not free. Or at least, you are only free to do "good". The moment your freedom threatens the interests of the "state", you will cease to be free.
To whatever extent that your freedom is either real, or an illusion, is only to the extent that your perceived freedom is beneficial to the state.
If the state could become more powerful by enslaving you, you would be a slave. The most-powerful state rules the rest. Thus, if slavery created power, then slave-states would always conquer free-states, until there were no free-states left(IE most of pre-industrial history).
We didn't win WWII with freedom and democracy. We won it with guns, and bombs, and money. And the soldiers weren't volunteers, they were conscripts, forced to fight "for their country". And conscription is just another form of slavery.
If you imagine Russia as an institution, or an organism. It needs to do certain things to survive. It needs to be able to defend itself. And in a Darwinian world, it needs to become as powerful as possible.
And not just Russia, but everyone. America needs to be as powerful as possible. China needs to be as powerful as possible. Saudi Arabia needs to be as powerful as possible. And power, in this world, comes mostly from money. Which is why the #1 priority for all governments is "economic growth".
Whatever evils you think Russia is committing, they are doing so only out of necessity. Putin isn't the devil, he is just another Machiavellian, in a long line of Machiavellians.
The actions of Putin and the KGB have a greater purpose. The entire world operates through a geopolitical and economic dimension. Domestic policy is always shaped by foreign policy. And national security always comes before everything else.
Freedom, rights, democracy, equality, and virtue, will always be sacrificed in the name of national security. It doesn't matter if it is America, or Russia, or China, or anywhere else. It is always the same.
If you think Russia is fundamentally different than America, you don't know anything.
Machiavelli was the proto-realist: the Prince should act to maximize his power relative to his rivals. Putin's Russia will only be successful if the transatlantic alliance declines to stand together. Putin's foreign policy is a hail mary with a small-minded vision of the future. Asia and Africa are the future. China is lapping the US & Russia in Africa below the Sahara. China is also increasingly likely to press its advantage in Asia, where the US (but not Russia) is a real rival.
maybe you should read U.S. History again and stop throwing stones when we live in a glass house.
I don't apologize for our history, it is what it is but it makes you hypocritical when you call Putin a murderer, thief and a liar when we had Presidents that fit that description and worse.
Putin is a murderer, a thief and a liar. And that's true no matter the past failings of other world leaders.
For all those parroting the same "He regularly imprisons his political opposition or has them assassinated", I bet if he was american and run for president he will be the favorite. Just listen to him 5 minutes.
Instead of the promises of more wars/tougher on terrorism, abstract meaningless unemployment numbers/stock market, border wall, etc. American will probably want to listen to this:
So he's a charming psychopath and he'll tell people what they want to hear. Do you have a point? Most tinpot dictators have in fact been very good at telling their underlings what they wanted to hear. It's almost a job requirement.
Do you deny that political opposition in Russia can be extremely detrimental to your health?
So he's a charming psychopath and he'll tell people what they want to hear. Do you have a point? Most tinpot dictators have in fact been very good at telling their underlings what they wanted to hear. It's almost a job requirement.
Do you deny that political opposition in Russia can be extremely detrimental to your health?
My point is that he is a politician, just like american politicians.
I don't deny any of the crimes and corruption in russia. All that I'm saying and a few others here is that the u.s. is not much different. A long history of political prisoners, whistle-blowers die from "robberies gone wrong", others die in car accidents, dozen of world leaders and other important people die in plane crashes.
The only different is that they are better covered up, therefore silenced. I'm making this up, right?
This is just small example, the vast majority of it is covered up.
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