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you pee on my leg and tell me its raining, I still know its pee.
From where I'm sitting, seems to me most of the pee is coming from you, and you are somehow thinking it looks like something else to others...
These players taking a knee don't "need" people like you. People like you are part of the problem. They need the people in law enforcement and/or positions of political responsibility to take corrective action despite people like you!
With this logic, a company should also be 100% free to do business with anyone for any reason. Don't you agree?
The fact of the matter the NFL isn't a 100% private corporation. It benefits from billions of dollars of taxpayers subsidies in the form of free stadiums, laws to protect its monopoly and forced fees from cable/satellite subscriptions. Let's cut all of that out first, and then we can talk about the rest.
With this logic, cities and counties should cut all subsidies intended to return revenues to the cities and counties that benefit from people attending these venues?
Any idea how much money comes to the local area as a result of these games? The playoffs? The Super Bowl?
Any idea why cities work so hard to win the rights to host these sports events?
The World Series, NBA playoffs, Stanley Cup, Super Bowl, World Cup...
According to the article that begins this thread... "Sports is the most popular form of entertainment, with Americans spending about $56bn on sports events last year, compared to about $11bn on movies. Seventy-two percent of 18- to 29-year-olds consider themselves sports fans, as do a majority of those older."
It is not trump vs the NFL, Trump reflects the attitude of most of the country.
He is the guy who says what we want to say to the NFL.
entertainers are paid to entertain, when they begin to offend the audience, the play closes down.
Simple.
The kneelers are showing disrespect for the flag and national anthem, two things that bind all of our differences. When we get slapped in the face, don't expect any sympathy for whatever they're trying to sell.
Since gang law is so well entrenched and embraced by the media and democrat politicians, look at it this way, we have been diss'd by the players and take offense.
Not so fast and maybe not so simple. Your comment caused me to do a little research into just how true your claim really is. I found varied numbers, just like this article describes...
"Polls about the protests have shown wildly different, seemingly conflicting results about where the public stands. But the polling results aren’t as conflicting as they seem, and what pollsters find is heavily influenced by what the debating parties believe the protests mean.
Those poll questions basically focus on one of three frameworks:
Patriotism. Trump said his objections to the protests were about “respect for our Country, Flag and National Anthem,” not about race.
Free speech. Some onlookers have defended the protests as a matter of free speech, regardless of what issues that speech is meant to highlight.
Race. When Colin Kaepernick first began protesting during the national anthem a little over a year ago, he said he wasn’t going to show pride in a country that oppresses people of color, citing a litany of police violence against black Americans.
These three ways of looking at the protests have colored the polling. A recent CBS/YouGov poll of over 1,300 respondents asked people — regardless of whether they agreed with the protests — what NFL players were trying to do by kneeling during the national anthem. A large majority (73 percent) of respondents said the players were trying to call attention to racism, and 69 percent said players were calling attention to police violence. But 40 percent said the protests were trying to disrespect the flag, while 33 percent said the goal was to disrespect the military."
But these kneeling jack asses aren’t saying anything. They’re just acting silly. If they truly want to have an effect they should go out into their own communities and put their money where their mouth is. Or maybe they should put their money where their knee is.
"they should go out into their own communities and put their money where their mouth is."
I have asked, and NOT 1 SINGLE PERSON who SUPPORTS the athletes came back with an answer, so I will ask it AGAIN.
What did THEY doing the off season to address their complaints with the LOCAL Police and Mayors about their grievances?
The audience does not "need to read and understand" anything. Offend the audience, the play closes down. Done.
Depends, I think, on the audience...
I don't know how many times I've been at a concert, for example, and at some point during the show (before, during or after) the performer decides to speak -- about something. Might be the city we're in. Might be the weather. Might be politics...
Performers not only have this right but they often take advantage of expressing their opinion, sometimes because they feel they should make good use of their voice that can be heard better from on stage than otherwise, maybe to address what we're all hearing on Fox News, or from Trump, or whatever.
Some do, some don't, and of course if anyone in the audience can't stand hearing what they don't want to hear, they can always leave. Those kinds of people, I don't think, are typical at a music concert, except maybe a Ted Nugent concert...
I don't care if they kneel or not, and I'm fine with the free market adjudicating it via boycotts, of that's what people want to do.
What I wish people - especially conservatives - were intelligent enough to realize is that in a country that prides itself on individual freedom and supposedly desires limited government, you don't want the top government official butting in and telling citizens how they should or shouldn't act for maximum patriotic effect. Just because he is echoing your opinion in this case doesn't make it a good precedent.
Go down that path a bit further - and combine it with Trump's military parade idea - and you quickly end up with government censorship and requirements for everyone to act super-patriotic (and super-flattering to the President as the top government figurehead) like they do in NK.
I don't see a lot or Trump supporters with the apparent IQ to grasp this. If you actually believed any of the Constitutional principles you claim to support, you would let the private markets take care of what NFL players do at games. Keep the government out of it.
Yeah, because people are really going to take overpaid athletes seriously when it comes to protesting their perceived injustices. Especially when a good portion of the players have been charged with crimes and walked away with little to no actual punishment. Kneeling over inequality is laughable.
Police brutality? Here's a thought: tell your community to stop being criminals and putting themselves in a situation where the police even notice them. There's a reason police tend to be more likely to go on the offensive in black neighborhoods: that's where the crime happens and where they are more likely to get assaulted by the people who they are trying to protect and serve. Any experienced officer with experience in the "hood" is going to be far more likely to react with swift violence in those neighborhoods than in suburbia. It doesn't matter if the officer is white, black, or chartreuse. It's dangerous, and they're more likely to meet perceived threats with actual violence. If the players were really worried about deaths in the black community they'd be protesting their own communities in areas like Chicago and St. Louis, where shooting up the neighborhood is a weekend hobby.
I fully support their right to protest, but I also have the right to laugh at their idiocy.
What a load of horse manure!
"Overpaid athletes?"
Now we're going to decide who is overpaid and who isn't? That's not the alt-right winging way! Last I checked the free market decided such things...
Trump is a billionaire! Born into wealth and never had to worry about money his whole lifetime. Paid his way to the center of that stage of some 14 other Republican contenders to become POTUS. Not exactly the purest of prior history either. Probably never even encountered abuse of power by law enforcement, not by a long shot.
Yet..., we're all supposed to listen to Trump as if he is all worthy while we can't tolerate the voice of someone black, who also made a name for themselves, DESPITE the challenges of these injustices that Trump and all too many Americans have no clue about.
The rest of this you explain about what goes on in black neighborhoods and why is particularly offensive, but not because we don't all know what the statistics tell us! Tell a poor black woman trying to raise her son in Chicago that the regular shootings are a "weekend hobby." You need your head examined!
They're engaging in politics at work. Their employer has the right to tell them not do to so. If they don't like it, they're free to find other employment
My employer has a "no political discussions at work" policy, so the NFL isn't unique. Politics at work is disruptive, especially in this day and age.
It's really that simple. You, and the author of the article, are making it far more complicated than it is.
Again, we all know there are all sorts of company policies that determine or restrict what we may or may not be able to do at work, what we are expected to do or not do. Not to complicate the matter any more than you are comfortable to consider, but I think this issue is a bit more complicated, as explained by Kareem in his article.
Consider this if you will. Singing the National Anthem before a game is a form of political expression, nationalism, patriotism, whatever you want to call it. Also the presentation of the American Flag and the military presence, tributes. None of which typically goes on when you begin your day at work.
Given the rather heavy dose of national political symbolism at the beginning of most professional sports entertainment shows, why is no other political expression allowed?
I get the whole "protection of brand" that all businesses take seriously. I was a keeper of such a brand once upon a time, but entertainment is a unique deal. Just how far do we want to go -- need to go -- in order to establish what entertainers can or cannot do when it comes to entertainment in general, free speech, like maybe before the game even starts?!? Is it good for the NFL brand to stifle free speech? Even before the game, "the show," even really begins?
This is the more complicated question far as I'm concerned, especially since I am not inclined toward forced patriotism which someone else pointed out is really fascism. I want to know my fellow Americans, entertainers too, are doing what they are doing because of how they feel, not because they are REQUIRED, and I don't see the taking of a knee before a game reducing the entertainment value of the game in any way whatsoever!
Still got to kick the ball as far down field as you can at kick off. Still got to go 10 yards for a first down. Still got to get the ball in the end zone or through the goal posts to score points.
So I got as far as when he said: "For people of color, professional sports has always been a mirror of America’s attitude toward race: as long as black players were restricted from taking the field, then the rest of black Americans would never truly be considered equal, meaning they would not be given equal educational or employment opportunities. Even after they were permitted to play, sports has been the public face of America, not what we sentimentally profess to believe when waving flags on the Fourth of July, but of our actual daily behavior."
I could apply the same reasoning to women. Women athletes restricted from taking the field/court, restricted in general from sports thus women throughout the US would never truly be considered equal, given equal educational or employment opportunities.
Sound kind of silly when you replace people of color with women doesn't it.
Yes it does! Very silly, but not for the reasons you seem to think...
The issue and/or history of how black athletes were prevented from competing in professional sports not all that long ago was entirely a function of racism, having nothing to do with a black man's ability to compete in the sport.
Women just like men who can't compete with the biggest, strongest most talented athletes, are not excluded because of skin color or even sexism. Sports is a physical competition entirely dependent on an athlete's ability to compete, or so we've finally come to allow.
Wasn't the case for black men not too long ago. This in part is also what Kareem tried to explain in his article, obviously not so well understood by everyone who reads it...
Right wing whiners always complain about the over sensitivity of the left.
Yet apparently, less than 1% of the people on a football field silently dropping to 1 knee or raising their hand is so offensive they can't bear to keep their tv on without being offended and wanting people fired, deported, or killed (Kapernick t-shirts with him in the crosshairs being sold outside some stadiums). Talk about your sensitive crybabies who have no understanding of freedom...
Meanwhile, for as long as the anthem has been played before games, plenty of people are zoned out, paying no attention, drinking beer, eating hot dogs, or taking the anthem time to go drop a deuce while the bathrooms are less busy. Never bothered them a bit, never a word about disrespect .
Only 6 players kneeled the week before the orange buffoon started attacking the NFL, the following week 200 players joined. Did they all suddenly hate America and the flag? Probably so if you ask right wingers, but its obvious they were standing up against a president demanding specific behavior from them like the wannabe dictator he is.
Right. It's almost comical, but I have another take on how to explain this dynamic...
In fact I know and love some people very close to me who have helped me understand all you describe a bit differently, because I DO know them personally and by way of simple observation. I think there are Americans who are so intent on demonstrating their love of country that they use this issue as a way to show just how pro-American they are, how patriotic. Ironic in a way, because they are very emotional and vocal about what the flag means to them, why they sing the national anthem loudly, obviously wanting to demonstrate just how a "good" American should act, despite the fact that expecting the likes of others is truly unAmerican, or should be anyway!
I understand the sentiment, the want to show off some patriotism, like I do when I fly the American flag on the 4th of July, but for me it's also a bit like back in high school when you had some people totally into school pride thing while others had school pride but weren't all that inclined to go off about it all the time. Doesn't really bother me that other Americans, neighbors up and down the street are not also flying the American flag on the 4th of July. Free country!
On the one hand, you have misguided borderline fascist type expectations about what "good" Americans should do and at the other end you have people who are maybe a little more humble, subdued, about their love of country, and tolerant of those who also love their country but might have some legitimate reason to express heartburn about some things still going on in America today.
The "love it or leave it" crowd vs the other good Americans who just don't think or act that way...
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