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If you are applying for jobs, that means there are jobs out there. You need to examine what it is that makes you unhirable, and do what you need to do to fix it.
Reminds me of another rather simple suggestion about how "a Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."
I used to own and operate an employment agency, and I can tell you this issue is a bit more complicated than you seem to believe. Fixing very bad English, for example, because someone never learned how to speak any better while growing up on the streets, is very difficult to "fix" all that fast or all that well. Some don't even seem to know they have the problem! Just for starters...
An employment agency can serve as a good place to start for lots of people. Some staffing companies that will even help with respect to what needs "fixing" but then again, for many people, taking crap jobs for crap wages becomes the problem, especially if this is all they are really qualified for. People generally need to have faith their work will lead to better days, a better life. The lack of that faith because they perceive only more difficult days ahead (and nights) is also very difficult to "fix" for some people who never seem to get ahead in life no matter how hard they work.
Then too, there are so many people who work hard and still find themselves out of a crap job one day simply because a company chooses or needs to do some serious cost cutting. After a year of work at the local meat packing plant, the resume doesn't do so well in terms of helping to get much better. Lots and lots of issues that some people manage to overcome while other very good hard working people just don't seem able.
What of all that keeps so many millions of people down or from getting ahead is "their fault" vs not really or not so much, also tends to be more complicated than you seem able to reason...
He and his girlfriend bought a 2-family that had been converted into a 1-family and converted it back to a 2-family. They're both quite handy. He was born and raised on a farm in Montana and she was born and raised on a farm in up-state New York. He was an assistant manager a local non-corporate grocery store, then installed cable TV and now he paints. She's a bank teller.
Last year they bought a 3-bedroom split-level on an acre of land for $149,000 and the two renters pay the mortgage on his 2-family and part of the mortgage on his house.
That happened, because they wanted it to happen.
That's how it works.
Certainly not the typical story I've heard from people trying to earn their GED and believe me when I tell you I've heard many...
Perhaps that's how it works more often wherever someone can buy a 3-bedroom home on an acre for $149K, but some people want MORE than just to own such an asset in such a place. Not going to work for my kids anyway, where such a home anywhere striking distance of their work costs more like $2 or $3 million. Minimum!
So many issues to consider and this is yet another. There is no question there are people who will devote their life to little more than work and saving money. My wife's grandmother was like that. Scrimped and saved and worked nonstop until she was able to buy some property for similar little value, but I don't' know how many times my wife and I have both admired her and concluded we could never live like she did. She really had no life far as WE were concerned, but of course for her, that was what her life was ALL about.
You make the common mistake of projecting whatever your perspective and/or experience might be in these regards as if they apply the same way to everyone else, but they simply don't. My kids aren't willing to move to Oklahoma, for example, and if that means it's "their fault" they can't afford a home, then it would seem we see about as "eye to eye" about this as we do about much else you go on about...
Reminds me of another rather simple suggestion about how "a Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."
I used to own and operate an employment agency, and I can tell you this issue is a bit more complicated than you seem to believe. Fixing very bad English, for example, because someone never learned how to speak any better while growing up on the streets, is very difficult to "fix" all that fast or all that well. Some don't even seem to know they have the problem! Just for starters...
An employment agency can serve as a good place to start for lots of people. Some staffing companies that will even help with respect to what needs "fixing" but then again, for many people, taking crap jobs for crap wages becomes the problem, especially if this is all they are really qualified for. People generally need to have faith their work will lead to better days, a better life. The lack of that faith because they perceive only more difficult days ahead (and nights) is also very difficult to "fix" for some people who never seem to get ahead in life no matter how hard they work.
Then too, there are so many people who work hard and still find themselves out of a crap job one day simply because a company chooses or needs to do some serious cost cutting. After a year of work at the local meat packing plant, the resume doesn't do so well in terms of helping to get much better. Lots and lots of issues that some people manage to overcome while other very good hard working people just don't seem able.
What of all that keeps so many millions of people down or from getting ahead is "their fault" vs not really or not so much, also tends to be more complicated than you seem able to reason...
Two quick points:
First, you talk a lot about people that are “working hardâ€. About that, there was a point a long time ago when I realized that “working hard†meant something completely different to me, than it means for the majority of Americans out there. I think anyone who does MY kind of “working hard†will eventually succeed, but most people just don’t have the stomach for the kind of effort I am talking about.
Second, I think one of the defining character traits of what makes someone a liberal, is that they think of every reason imaginable, NOT to blame the person for anything wrong in their lives. There is always “extenuating circumstancesâ€. This person was discriminated against because of their ethnicity, that person grew up poor, the other person didn’t get a good education, etc, etc, etc.
Maybe what makes me conservative, is that I believe that most people can do whatever they set their mind to. I have seen it enough times in real life to know that it is true. It takes an unbelievable amount of work and devotion. You think about that goal from the minute you wake up in the morning until the moment you go to sleep at night. It requires a passion and devotion that most people will never know, not because they cant, but because they don’t allow themselves to know it. Excuses are detrimental to success. Why try that hard when you have a built in excuse to fail, and enough people that will accept that excuse and welcome you into their own misery where you can cry on each other’s shoulders about how the world is unfair.? The more excuses you give someone, the less likely they will be to succeed. Then they expect the government to do things for them that they should be doing for themselves. Success is all about taking responsibility for your actions and outcomes.
Now, I say “most people†because there are going to be people with physical and mental disabilities. I’m not talking about those people. Those are the people that government assistance was really meant for.
You make the common mistake of projecting whatever your perspective and/or experience might be in these regards as if they apply the same way to everyone else, but they simply don't. .
This needs to be said over and over and over again. People judge others by what is normal for themselves in so many cases.
However, that being said (and this is in response to a post by someone else!), if people truly do want to work, they need to present themselves in the best possible light and look at themselves from the viewpoint of the interviewer -- and most interviewers look for a somewhat conventional appearance (meaning no face tattoos, for example), basic politeness, and a sincere desire to work. I think that most interviewers are put off by people with an attitude of, "You either accept me for exactly how I am, or you're just a bigoted a**hole."
[When I was in charge of interviewing and hiring secretarial staff, I was looking for the answers to four basic questions: Can they do the job? (training, skills, education),Will they do the job? (job history), Will they fit in? (amiability), and Do they really want the job? (the position is in line with career or life goals and desired salary, and eagerness and interest in that specific position). If someone would come to an interview wearing shorts and sandals, then I admit that I would conclude that they really were not all that interested in actually finding a job -- and ditto if the only questions they asked were about vacations, time off, and benefits.]
Btw, I also once volunteered for a non-profit that operated a food bank and tried to match homeless parents to various kinds of shelters, and I will never forget a young woman who told me flat out that she wouldn't go to a certain shelter because "they have rules" -- and she had a very young child! I find it very hard to have compassion for people with that kind of attitude.
P.S. Yes, there are many employers and interviewers who are willing to look beyond the surface impression, but I think those are definitely still in the minority. (Please correct me if I am wrong about that.)
Last edited by katharsis; 07-09-2019 at 04:53 PM..
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
Two quick points:
First, you talk a lot about people that are “working hardâ€. About that, there was a point a long time ago when I realized that “working hard†meant something completely different to me, than it means for the majority of Americans out there. I think anyone who does MY kind of “working hard†will eventually succeed, but most people just don’t have the stomach for the kind of effort I am talking about.
Second, I think one of the defining character traits of what makes someone a liberal, is that they think of every reason imaginable, NOT to blame the person for anything wrong in their lives. There is always “extenuating circumstancesâ€. This person was discriminated against because of their ethnicity, that person grew up poor, the other person didn’t get a good education, etc, etc, etc.
Maybe what makes me conservative, is that I believe that most people can do whatever they set their mind to. I have seen it enough times in real life to know that it is true. It takes an unbelievable amount of work and devotion. You think about that goal from the minute you wake up in the morning until the moment you go to sleep at night. It requires a passion and devotion that most people will never know, not because they cant, but because they don’t allow themselves to know it. Excuses are detrimental to success. Why try that hard when you have a built in excuse to fail, and enough people that will accept that excuse and welcome you into their own misery where you can cry on each other’s shoulders about how the world is unfair.? The more excuses you give someone, the less likely they will be to succeed. Then they expect the government to do things for them that they should be doing for themselves. Success is all about taking responsibility for your actions and outcomes.
Now, I say “most people†because there are going to be people with physical and mental disabilities. I’m not talking about those people. Those are the people that government assistance was really meant for.
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too? How many 4'11" NBA players or computer programmers with an IQ below 90 do you see?....
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too? How many 4'11" NBA players or computer programmers with an IQ below 90 do you see?....
The sentence of mine you bolded said “most peopleâ€. Most people have an IQ above 90. And yes, there will by physical limitations with certain physical professions. Most people can become computer programmers if that is what their passion is. If they eat, sleep, and crap computer programming 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, even someone with average intelligence will become proficient at the very least.
But most people wont do that. That is my idea of working hard. At 50 years old, I still work 24 hour shifts 8 days a month. And when they ask me if I can work the next day, I almost always say yes, turning my 24 hour shift into a 30 hour shift. And the days I’m not on call, are between 12 and 15 hours. So when people tell me they “Work hard and still cant get ahead.†The first thing I wonder, is what their idea of “working hard†is.
First, you talk a lot about people that are “working hard”. About that, there was a point a long time ago when I realized that “working hard” meant something completely different to me, than it means for the majority of Americans out there. I think anyone who does MY kind of “working hard” will eventually succeed, but most people just don’t have the stomach for the kind of effort I am talking about.
Second, I think one of the defining character traits of what makes someone a liberal, is that they think of every reason imaginable, NOT to blame the person for anything wrong in their lives. There is always “extenuating circumstances”. This person was discriminated against because of their ethnicity, that person grew up poor, the other person didn’t get a good education, etc, etc, etc.
Maybe what makes me conservative, is that I believe that most people can do whatever they set their mind to. I have seen it enough times in real life to know that it is true. It takes an unbelievable amount of work and devotion. You think about that goal from the minute you wake up in the morning until the moment you go to sleep at night. It requires a passion and devotion that most people will never know, not because they cant, but because they don’t allow themselves to know it. Excuses are detrimental to success. Why try that hard when you have a built in excuse to fail, and enough people that will accept that excuse and welcome you into their own misery where you can cry on each other’s shoulders about how the world is unfair.? The more excuses you give someone, the less likely they will be to succeed. Then they expect the government to do things for them that they should be doing for themselves. Success is all about taking responsibility for your actions and outcomes.
Now, I say “most people” because there are going to be people with physical and mental disabilities. I’m not talking about those people. Those are the people that government assistance was really meant for.
You also make the mistake of assuming just because I lean toward giving people the benefit of the doubt, "innocent until proven guilty," that I don't well understand and recognize the many people who are more deserving of their misfortune than others. I lean all the more in the direction I do, however, every time conservatives insist on describing Americans (or people in general) who are not doing so well as simply "lazy." Deserving their sad lot in life. Homeless people too. It's that sort of false premise I "talk a lot about" if anything...
The rest you think makes you a conservative is probably mostly true. Sure seems to me that most conservatives who think this way have this common notion that if they did it, "anyone can." Either that's a very humble notion or quite the opposite. My further observation over time is that it's the opposite and more about ego than reality. Then too there are the numbers, the statistics that seem to well demonstrate the simple fact that getting ahead in life, to the point of higher levels of income and wealth, healthy family, good vacations, investments and eventual retirement with financial security is a rather rare accomplishment.
The numbers certainly don't seem to suggest that "anyone can do it, " or I think far more would. Unless we're somehow supposed to believe that people CHOOSE to live spoon-to-mouth with all the challenges of poverty rather than get ahead in life the way most everyone aspires one way or another. Even people with physical and mental disabilities, but people with disabilities are actually a small percentage of all the people who struggle at the bottom half of the American economic pyramid.
The reality of how and why people get ahead financially speaking is perhaps easier to recognize when we consider why someone might have an income of $10 million per year as compared to $100,000 per year. The person making $10 million is likely to make the exact same sort of argument. Worked hard -- day and night -- to make his millions (in one year). That anyone could do the same if they just worked hard and applied themselves in the same way...
Not sure your income, but if it's all about hard work and effort, why aren't you too making $10 million per year? That too a CHOICE on your part? Or maybe you somehow believe it's because you are just not willing to work that hard? No. I think climbing the economic ladder is certainly about working hard and maybe more importantly working smart, but it's just not smart to think that's all there is to why 3 Americans have more wealth than the bottom 50 percent of Americans. Nobody can work that much harder or smarter than everyone else. Let's get a clue already...
This needs to be said over and over and over again. People judge others by what is normal for themselves in so many cases.
However, that being said (and this is in response to a post by someone else!), if people truly do want to work, they need to present themselves in the best possible light and look at themselves from the viewpoint of the interviewer -- and most interviewers look for a somewhat conventional appearance (meaning no face tattoos, for example), basic politeness, and a sincere desire to work. I think that most interviewers are put off by people with an attitude of, "You either accept me for exactly how I am, or you're just a bigoted a**hole."
[When I was in charge of interviewing and hiring secretarial staff, I was looking for the answers to four basic questions: Can they do the job? (training, skills, education),Will they do the job? (job history), Will they fit in? (amiability), and Do they really want the job? (the position is in line with career or life goals and desired salary, and eagerness and interest in that specific position). If someone would come to an interview wearing shorts and sandals, then I admit that I would conclude that they really were not all that interested in actually finding a job -- and ditto if the only questions they asked were about vacations, time off, and benefits.]
Btw, I also once volunteered for a non-profit that operated a food bank and tried to match homeless parents to various kinds of shelters, and I will never forget a young woman who told me flat out that she wouldn't go to a certain shelter because "they have rules" -- and she had a very young child! I find it very hard to have compassion for people with that kind of attitude.
P.S. Yes, there are many employers and interviewers who are willing to look beyond the surface impression, but I think those are definitely still in the minority. (Please correct me if I am wrong about that.)
Thanks for weighing in with what I think are fair observations, but again the focus on those who don't like rules, for example, tends to be somewhat insulting for people struggling to get ahead who have no such problem...
You touch on yet another interesting "dynamic" with respect to how or why some people get ahead while others don't. Some people have a real hard time conforming to what employers expect of them in terms of image or behavior or philosophy. I know I've "towed the line" in more ways than I like to admit, sometimes doing what "rubbed me the wrong way," but I'm more accommodating along those lines and my background has always been business oriented. What if I was a writer instead? I doubt I'd be in the same place I am today financially speaking. Not given the odds generally speaking (and/or what is happening to the journalism profession).
What happens for people who are more inclined toward the arts? Writing? Music? Sports? Alternative lifestyles and on and on?
Their choice?
Sure, I suppose, to a point, but the same odds and ability to get ahead no matter who we are or what we're about? Of course we're all different in these regards and these differences are yet another factor in the equation that determines our ultimate lot in life -- having little to do with who is smart, who works hard or who is lazy.
Thanks for weighing in with what I think are fair observations, but again the focus on those who don't like rules, for example, tends to be somewhat insulting for people struggling to get ahead who have no such problem...
You touch on yet another interesting "dynamic" with respect to how or why some people get ahead while others don't. Some people have a real hard time conforming to what employers expect of them in terms of image or behavior or philosophy. I know I've "towed the line" in more ways than I like to admit, sometimes doing what "rubbed me the wrong way," but I'm more accommodating along those lines and my background has always been business oriented. What if I was a writer instead? I doubt I'd be in the same place I am today financially speaking. Not given the odds generally speaking (and/or what is happening to the journalism profession).
What happens for people who are more inclined toward the arts? Writing? Music? Sports? Alternative lifestyles and on and on?
Their choice?
Sure, I suppose, to a point, but the same odds and ability to get ahead no matter who we are or what we're about? Of course we're all different in these regards and these differences are yet another factor in the equation that determines our ultimate lot in life -- having little to do with who is smart, who works hard or who is lazy.
Yes, you also made some fair points, although I definitely did not mean to imply, and I certainly do NOT believe, that all people --or even most people -- who are unemployed, underemployed, or struggling financially are in that circumstance because they don't like to follow rules or "conform". My husband has often had periods of unemployment, and he is as conventional in both appearance and manner as one could imagine with short hair, Oxford shirts, pressed slacks, and "old-fashioned" manners. (He is an electrical designer, and his last fairly long-term period of unemployment ended just last year; however, he was fortunate because although he was in his early 60's, his skills and experience meant that he could -- and did -- find another position that paid as well as his previous one.)
My main point was simply that some people are in a bad position because they won't 'kowtow' at all. In some cases, that might be out of ignorance, as it is entirely possible that some people just have never learned what many people would consider the "basics" of job interviewing (to be neat, polite, respectful, etc.) -- but there are some people who do know the basics but refuse to follow them. I don't want to guess at any of those reasons, but based on some of the posts in the Work and Employment forum, I certainly have some opinions about that, and they are not flattering ones because most of what I gather from reading such posts is defiance and pride at not "sucking up". (Again, I am not saying that is true for the majority of people, and I actually suspect that it is actually just a small minority.)
Oh, and I was also not referring to people with artistic or athletic talents or extremely high IQ's. I know that many gifted people do not have to kowtow to any corporate interviewer to have their worth acknowledged and be paid well IF they are truly exceptional. However, the simple fact is that most people are not gifted artistically or athletically, and my opinion is that some people might do better in life if they recognize that fact.
And, yes, I also agree that genetics and the circumstances of one's parents also play a very large part on how successful one is. I would certainly never suggest that someone who was born to high school drop-outs and grew up in a very poor and possibly violent environment has even close to the same chance of success as someone born to educated and wealthy parents; and I agree with most people that someone who is obese, hearing impaired, and has below average intelligence has a much less chance of success than someone who is physically fit, very intelligent, and has no disabilities. However, there have been many, many people with severe disadvantages who have far outshown many other people with no disadvantages at all (except possibly a lack of ambition and an inclination toward laziness).
But all that being said, there are still some things that people do have some control over in most cases -- and that is doing the three things described earlier that will give a MUCH better chance of someone not ending up poor -- graduating from high school, delaying becoming parents, and getting and keeping a full-time job. But at the risk of being redundant, in order to get a full-time job, it is usually necessary to "kow-tow" to a least some degree and follow the rules described above; and I have no respect for people who act like they are 'above' doing that. Such thinking just makes me shake my head.
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