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The false information that's being pumped into our society is that your elected officials care about you. They care so much in fact they just raised your obligations to the public debt from $30k a person to $60K a person. At current health insurance rates for a single person that in itself would cover 400 months of coverage. Instead the government is going to collect it for you, take it's share and then pay for the service. I have my own thoughts if you haven't noticed. It's you that's actually pumping party lines and claiming politicians are better suited to make your decisions than you are. If you haven't noticed this latest appointee couldn't even manage her own taxes, as well as the last democratic nomination. But you somehow think they are going to throw a system together "for the people".
I'm not going to argue that the government is not a problem too. But you want to know WHY government is a problem?? CORPORATE LOBBYING !! That's why.
Take health insurance.. they go in there and the pay these lobbyists boatloads of money to get our reps to pass bills that do nothing but increase their bottom line at the cost of the rest of us.
Government is NOT the problem.. our government is a SYMPTOM of the underlying problem of out of control GREED and large Corporate dominance.
AGain.. go read up on the UK system and the Swiss system .. then come back and argue. We stand a much better chance of having affordable healthcare with a mix of gov't and private entities than we do with our current system that's ONLY concern has NOTHING to do with the health of people or this nation, but is ONLY interested in PROFITS!!
Again.. you condemn the gov't.. yet the gov't program only spends 5% on administration as compared to over 30% in the private sector.
also. the highest paid politician is the president at $500,0000 a year.. look at the salaries of healthcare CEO's.. go visit the link I gave a few pages back.
THAT is waste as the expense of American's healthcare.
how is it other countries cover ALL their citizens and have no uninsured yet spenda FRACTION of what we spend on GDP for healthcare?
France has had a right wing government for 14 years. I guess current affairs and politics are not your forte. In Europe ONLY Britain , Spain and Portugal have left wing governments ( if you can call "new labour" left wing which is really stretching it and Spain only very recently). Yet ALL of Europe has Universal healthcare.
I am surprised you did not know that .
People do not choose to live in poverty nor are they lazy .A small minority of people are lazy , the vast majority are not.
I am sad to see so many Americans not believing in society. If you chose to be part of society then you start having to shoulder some responsibility for other human beings more vulnerable than yourself. That is what a society is about.
Selfish behaviour is perfect for completely self sufficient people . If you are a survivalist somewhere in deepest Montana and literally owe nothing to anyone then I will accept your reasoning.
If you make your own clothes, guns, kill your own food and have nothing to do with commercialism in any way shape of form , if you do not use roads, do not expect the army get killed for you, if you will put your own fire out by yourself when your house is on fire etc... then taxes make no sense whatsover. Even as a liberal left wing socialist, I can accept that. In fact I quite admire self sufficient people. Except in my entire life I have met about 6 .
If you are living among society then you have rights as well as responsibilities because we are all linked one way or another.
To be so blind to the obvious is mind boggling. Unless you live like a hermit you owe as much to the people at the bottom of the ladder as you do to those on the upper echelons. In fact a lot more.
Poverty is NOT a choice. It is not a lifestyle.
Yes a teeny-tiny minority will be deabeats who will have chosen to drop out of society but the vast majority are people who through whatever life's circumstances cannot go further than they are.
We are ALL different. Some of us can born into a ghetto and rise to CEO, the vast majority cannot. Not because they are stupid or lazy but for a myriad of other reasons.
As for being disabled in the UK, actually life is fine here compared to what it would be in the US. Try to get health insurance if you have a pre-existing condition or previous health problems like leukaemia. Losing my comfortable lifestyle and home simply so I can afford healthcare just does not sound that much fun to me. Go figure, I like being middle class with the security to know that being sick is not tantamount to a crime... I wonder why.
But thank you for your concerns. Much appreciated. The milk of human kindness flows with every letter you type....
Government can do things right. Roads for example, Police, Armies. It can't run business though because it's diametrically opposed to the best interest of the company. They will be making decisions based on popularity not good business sense. You missed my point. Both Industry or government in total control is bad. They didn't write we the people for no reason. Also insurance companies right now are not in true competition. they hold monopolies over states through government planning. Of course they set the rules. If people had a choice to decide what health insurance was best for them by having more than 2 or 3 state assisted monopolies things would be different and waste would be taken care of.
Government is just like a leech. Left unchecked it will suck you dry. When used intelligently it can be a great medical tool. The road to socialism isn't a one day you're free then the next you're not. Election by election you vote your freedoms away. Some would say you have more freedom with "free" health care. I would ask them what's free about someone else running your life for you?
Access to healthcare should NOT be a business!! PERIOD. It's a direct conflict of interest.. denying people life saving treatments for the sake of the all mighty dollar.
But that's right.. as I said.. this country isn't run by the governmnet we elected..it's run by large corporations.. the same group that sold their country up river for a quick and dirty buck....
Only NOW the government is forced to step in and stop calamity and the wreckless behaviour of big greedy corporate pigs and wall street from knocking this country into third world status.
I have employer based health insurance (HMO) that I pay $210.00 a paycheck for. that is 5460 a year in premiums.
Yes, the healthcare issue goes beyond those insured. But to think that the gov't can fix it when they are part of the problem (Medicare) is assinine.
What amazes me is that 10 million children still don't have healthcare even though they spend billions on gov't healthcare for children. Car insurance is mandatory, so should children's health insurance.
Just what I thought. Good for you that you have a job and that your employer is chipping in a chunk of cash for your insurance, with you contributing "only" $5460/year. Won't it change anything for you if the employer were to get out of the picture and the burden taken over by, just you? But don't talk boldly that people making $50K can actually afford to pay $12K on insurance, when much of it doesn't even go towards healthcare but paying the dues to the middle men. Let me then ask, why do you love the middle men so much?
And forget the reality that if people have used their employer sponsored insurance, they may never find any of those middle men to write a policy and cover them. This doesn't occur to you, does it?
I certainly do expect government to fix it, a lot more than expecting private companies that have a tendency to corrupt the government to take care of the issue. It is why I prefer to have the right people in the government, not one to have beer with. You speak of 10 million uninsured children, and that is exactly why we need more help from the government. Private companies ain't doing it. And government is trying, even as many from within criticize any such action (SCHIP).
As for medicare, it is the government than people like you (and the middle men) that hate the idea of any healthcare reform that will also address it. Again, the choice is to rid ourselves of it (are you up for it?) or expect the middle men to take care of it... think about it, as you keep your hatred towards any step taken by the government.
also. the highest paid politician is the president at $500,0000 a year.. look at the salaries of healthcare CEO's.. go visit the link I gave a few pages back.
It still amazes me that the former CEO of UnitedHealthCare was paid 140 million a year, retired with a 1.4 billion dollar, that's right, 1.4 billion dollar stock option and was found guilty of fraud, not sure of all the details of this but he was fined 450 million but still retired flush with cash. His ass should have went to jail.
how many people live in france compared to the US? And since when is France right winged, did I miss the revolution?
Disabled in England? Guess you don't have much time left if something else happens to you. Cost effieciency and all, hope you don't mind. And don't act like they don't refuse care, because Obama wants to model his plan after that one.
In America we have healthcare for the disabled, the elderly and children. Everyone else should be able to fend for themselves. People choose to live in poverty because they are lazy and don't want to work to better. I shouldn't have to foot their bill too.
Actually, people on welfare have medicaid. The statistics have been all over here; most of the unisured are employed, or family members of employed people. AT A MINIMUM, there is no reason that every employer shouldn't offer health ins. to every employee working at least 32 hrs a wk, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenn02674
I know this is just one person but here is a great article written by a card carrying Canadian who has used the US System extensively. Read it just to get a different perspective from someone who has actually experienced it: Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org
Even though this is an opinion piece, it's very balanced. I think it should be reposted every few pages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
Yeah governments do all that for free...
I can't believe you folks would rather have a politician get your medical information and decipher it for you then to just talk to the doctor himself/herself. We all know how politicians look out for the little man. No one makes better choices for yourself than you and you alone. You allow a politician to make those decisions and you officially converted the health carer system into the High School popularity contest. It should be very clear to everyone that you can hire government or corporations, both have the same results. I know it's crazy but people really do look out for themselves despite their swagger or their affiliations in government or industry. The only thing that used to keep those in check were consumer power. Take away the freedom of choice and watch your power as a consumer disappear into a black hole.
The naive belief that all US health care is now "between doctor and patient" is a crock. The docs have to play the insurance co. game. It's not all bad, mind you. The insurance companies have standards of care as well. They will question and deny claims that don't meet those standards. I don't know who sets the standards. When you have to call insurance companies, which I do for my job, when you actually do get a human being on the other end, which is rare, it seems to be someone who has a high school education, at best!
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-01-2009 at 08:56 AM..
Reason: clarify "they"
I'm not going to argue that the government is not a problem too. But you want to know WHY government is a problem?? CORPORATE LOBBYING !! That's why.
Take health insurance.. they go in there and the pay these lobbyists boatloads of money to get our reps to pass bills that do nothing but increase their bottom line at the cost of the rest of us.
Government is NOT the problem.. our government is a SYMPTOM of the underlying problem of out of control GREED and large Corporate dominance.
Again.. go read up on the UK system and the Swiss system .. then come back and argue. We stand a much better chance of having affordable health care with a mix of gov't and private entities than we do with our current system that's ONLY concern has NOTHING to do with the health of people or this nation, but is ONLY interested in PROFITS!!
Again.. you condemn the gov't.. yet the gov't program only spends 5% on administration as compared to over 30% in the private sector.
also. the highest paid politician is the president at $500,0000 a year.. look at the salaries of health care CEO's.. go visit the link I gave a few pages back.
THAT is waste as the expense of American's health care.
how is it other countries cover ALL their citizens and have no uninsured yet spend a FRACTION of what we spend on GDP for health care?
Look no further than the last quasi government entities to see what results in those systems. Freddie, Fannie, Indy.
And I've read plenty about those other systems. You folks love to quote the health care plan of countries with 5-10 million people and act like with one broad stroke of a brush we can "be like them"
All living things die. It's a fact of life. The longer you extend it the more costly it is. The end result is all but written on the wall. 1+1 = 1 for the UHC'ers. Sounds like the same silly math being used in the current medicare system.
Quote:
As background to its estimates, the CBO notes
that spending on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social
Security will rise rapidly in the future, pushing up
“primary” federal spending (excluding interest
payments on the debt) from 18.2 percent of GDP
today to 28.3 percent in 2050 and 35.3 percent in
2082. With interest payments included, spending
will hit 41.8 percent of GDP in 2050 and 75.4 percent
by 2082.
Access to health care should NOT be a business!! PERIOD. It's a direct conflict of interest.. denying people life saving treatments for the sake of the all mighty dollar.
But that's right.. as I said.. this country isn't run by the government we elected..it's run by large corporations.. the same group that sold their country up river for a quick and dirty buck....
Only NOW the government is forced to step in and stop calamity and the reckless behavior of big greedy corporate pigs and wall street from knocking this country into third world status.
Really?
Members of the Board include:
William H. Donaldson, Chairman, SEC (2003-2005)
Roger W. Ferguson, Jr., President & CEO, TIAA-CREF
Robert Wolf, Chairman & CEO, UBS Group Americas
David F. Swensen, CIO, Yale University
Mark T. Gallogly, Founder & Managing Partner, Centerbridge Partners L.P.
Penny Pritzker, Chairman & Founder, Pritzker Realty Group
Jeffrey R. Immelt, CEO, GE
John Doerr, Partner, Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers
Jim Owens, Chairman and CEO, Caterpillar Inc.
Monica C. Lozano, Publisher & Chief Executive Officer, La Opinion
Charles E. Phillips, Jr., President, Oracle Corporation
Anna Burger, Chair, Change to Win
Richard L. Trumka, Secretary-Treasurer, AFL-CIO
Laura D'Andrea Tyson, Dean, Haas School of Business at the University of California at Berkeley
Martin Feldstein, George F. Baker Professor of Economics, Harvard University
The full membership of Obama's Transition Economic Advisory Board is:
David Bonior (member of House of Representatives, 1977-2003)
Warren Buffett (chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway)
Roel Campos (former commissioner of the Securities and Exchange Commission)
William Daley (Midwest chairman of JPMorgan Chase; secretary of commerce, 1997-2000)
William Donaldson (chairman of the SEC, 2003-2005)
Roger Ferguson (president and CEO of TIAA-CREF; former vice chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve)
Jennifer Granholm (governor of Michigan)
Anne Mulcahy (chairman and CEO of Xerox)
Richard Parsons (chairman of the board of Time Warner)
Penny Pritzker (CEO of Classic Residence by Hyatt)
Robert Reichprofessor at the University of California-Berkeley; secretary of labor, 1993-1997)
Robert Rubin (chairman and director of the Executive Committee at Citigroup; secretary of the Treasury, 1995-1999)
Eric Schmidt (chairman and CEO of Google)
Lawrence Summers (professor at Harvard University; managing director at D. E. Shaw; secretary of the Treasury, 1999-2001)
Laura Tyson (professor at the Haas School of Business, University of California-Berkeley; chairman of the National Economic Council, 1995-1996; chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers, 1993-1995)
Antonio Villaraigosa (mayor of Los Angeles)
Paul Volcker (chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, 1979-1987)
It's tied into business now more than ever. As a side note if you google GE and health insurance you might find a fairly big insurer is right now advising Obama directly. You thought Halliburton was bad? Just like with the whole tax thing, democrats take the cake for hypocrisy. That doesn't mean some republicans don't have problems paying taxes though. But they clearly haven't had as many troubles as Obama has had trying to appoint democrats.
Last edited by BigJon3475; 04-01-2009 at 09:49 AM..
And I've read plenty about those other systems. You folks love to quote the health care plan of countries with 5-10 million people and act like with one broad stroke of a brush we can "be like them"
We don't have to be like them, but we can certainly learn from it. And if numbers are really important, then remember, those 5-10 million people have a system which is supported by only 5-10 million people.
Quote:
As background to its estimates, the CBO notes that spending on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will rise rapidly in the future, pushing up “primary” federal spending (excluding interest payments on the debt) from 18.2 percent of GDP today to 28.3 percent in 2050 and 35.3 percent in 2082. With interest payments included, spending
will hit 41.8 percent of GDP in 2050 and 75.4 percent by 2082.
And yet, what we have is an unconditional support by many to maintain status quo and avoid healthcare reform at any cost.
Let's not kid ourselves though the red tape is from the government. In the free market if people didn't like their insurance company they would have an abundance of other choices. As soon as government steps in those choices start becoming limited till eventually the government has no choice but to run the whole thing. You'll see it happen in every industry and in every sector till one day you receive your monthly lunch menu. You ride on the bus to your daily work placement. You get your daily work assignment. You'll be given a "storage" spot. You will have a daily exercise requirement. Wait, I already did all that when I was 5-17 years old. You people really want a perpetual K-12 school type of life? that's what you are voting for when you vote to freely give up what little freedoms you do have left.
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