Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And the build-up of our military after that day has been outrageous and more than we can AFFORD.
The current military budget, not the one in 2001, could and should be scaled down.
If nothing else, a good part of that budget should be used to care for our military personnel once they have fulfilled their duties and return home. JMO.
I recall this thinking back in the 1990s. That big standing Army we had that won the Cold War was scaled down. It was much cheaper to depend on Reserve and National Guard troops.
Well, after September 11 we went to that plan. In a few short years, the complaint was that there was much too much dependency on Reserve and NG troops. I hope we are not going to commence this circle again.
I have to disagree with you. Reimbursing physicians for end-of-life counseling is not the same as a death panel. The first thing medical, nursing, and admissions staff do once a patient is admitted is to see if there are any orders for DNR (with orders to either utilize all heroic measures, some, or none) and who, if anyone, the patient has appointed to make decisions for them should they become incapacitated.
In the absence of those orders and provisions, hospitals do their best to care for patients with grave prognoses...often with well-meaning family members who insist on painful or unnecessary interventions that ultimately do not prolong the patient's life nor diminish their suffering.
I'm afraid that some already do, by ignoring mandates from private insurance companies and sometimes Medicare in order to care for their patients, regardless of cost.
I remember the debate(s) about Mr. Emanuel, and it is not true that he wants all elderly patients to go without care. There is a dire misunderstanding of his articles' intent.
Medical ethics is a very emotional subject regardless of which side you're on, patient or medical staff. Keeping a dying patient indefinitely on life support makes no more sense than vaccinating an end-stage-diseased patient against influenza during the last weeks of their life.
In a nutshell, those were some of the things Mr. Emanuel discussed in one of his papers.
There are several factors that determine who arrives in the OR first, and that is ultimately up to the medical staff's assessment of each patient's condition...and insurance approval.
Roy, you already have social medicine. Medicare. Not only did you contribute to your coverage, the rest of America did as well.
I'm very glad to hear that you've been so pro-active in your health. I'm also happy to hear that you received what sounds like very excellent care.
All Americans deserve that level of quality and attention.
Off I go on another of my disjointed long posts. Zeke Emanuel may be ethical as all hell but I doubt that a majority of doctors in this country think like that. With him buried in the bowels of the White House I just don't want to see the kind of system that the Congress (Democrats) tried for. I guess that the paper I read must have not been written by Zeke, huh?
Yep, medical ethics is a real problem for all involved directly in the animal but some of the rest of us need to always be involved. As for those doctors who violated the wants of insurance companies, do they have to worry about the law being slapped down on them? They are humans and most are very submissive to their Hypocratic (sp) oath which I really respect in them. I know many people who can't understand that most doctors aren't in it just for the money they can make. Most people don't realize how much money they have to spend getting all their degrees along with the fact that they aren't really making money while they are getting ready to practice. People who don't go into that kind of work manage to make money for a number of years while doctors are borrowing to keep alive.
Ok, ethics have been taken care of, but I haven't said word one about ethical Congressmen and other bureaucrats. I merely want to leave medical people in control of medicine with as little help from outside.
Speaking of Medicare, I wonder how many people have any idea how much we old people get withheld from our monthly checks. I can safely say that I have a bit more withheld than my wife or my sons and they all get a lot more money than I do from SS. I don't think that many people realize that you continue to pay on Medicare after retirement, though.
Hey, I know that there are medical people who make the decisions about care before it is extended as to who gets first call. I want it to remain that way and not have some little group of bureaucrats make the decisions. We are headed for just that, you know. That is what I was referring to about who went first, me or the guy who I felt so sorry for. He would have, no doubt, gone first if we were on the same day, but with 5 ORs doing nothing but by passes probably the time wouldn't have been too different. With bureaucrats making the decisions, I don't know.
If what you say about Zeke were the only paper he ever wrote I would be on his side but that wasn't his only one, I don't think.
We are in agreement on almost all this except for Zeke and a number of the other advisors in the White House so there is no reason for me to keep on.
Was Giuliani asking for a special air cover? Regardless, this nation splurges on military expense and if you disagree, you're either in denial or simply ignorant. The biggest savings can come from the biggest expenses.
Death Panel... would you like to have vanilla flavored or strawberry?
So, how's been your experience with Obama death panel? You should know... you've been using socialized medicine for your own health for a while now.
A lot longer than Obama has been President. How many years did I pay into Medicare figuring from 1965 to the present. Yes, I still get to pay into it and will until my SS stops and they can't withhold it from me.
I could handle socialized medicine if it weren't for the fact that bureaucrats would run it. Not medical people, but people who earned their jobs by supporting the party in power. Don't take that wrong because no matter what party was in power it would be like that.
excellent, your experiences serve you well, but do you really believe you have enough evidence to make a statistical claim as you have? i mean seeing several brown bears in america, asia and africa doesn't mean you've seen the white ones in the arctic. She's got at least as much evidence as you did to make your claim. After all, she works in the health care industry. You do not. You got your information second hand from your mother who works at a military hospital.
same place the OP got the old giezers who suck the system from.
See above in red.
BTW, how old is your mother's information? Decades?
I'd probably put more credence in a person who currently works in the system and has extensive experience.
YMMV, obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orincarnia
uhh, because i was giving a different point of view.
are you saying that only old people suck the system? not unwed mothers and single parent house holds? i dont do absolutes.
Please point out where I stated anything of the kind.
I questioned the "facts" that you purported from a mother who once worked for a military hospital.
You didn't present facts, you presented hearsay with nothing to back it up.
When its children who suffer the most? As a healthcare professional, I was reading an interesting blog. As a peds nurse I see many children who can't this or that done because there is no funding or they get rejected by insurance companies,meanwhile an elderly person who is 98 and on a ventilator ,and non responsive(brain dead) is getting her 5th. Hip surgery? Isn't that hip surgery unessesary at this point,meanwhile a child of 5 who is alert and has muscular dystrophy gets denied a wheelchair (and medicaid insurance) when they have a better prognosis than the elderly client? Or an elderly client who gets social security on top of getting a 3000 dollar pension and free medicare but we deny medicaid to the child who has cancer because the parents make 2000 a month? Tell me your opinions please
I think it's a combination of things that the health care industry itself has capitalized on to the detriment of all. Not to insult you all, but somewhere deep down all cannot help but be confronted with ethical dilemma of medical professions being for profit. I don't begrudge anyone enjoyment of what they've earned, or expect a vow of poverty from the professions. The problem is how much profit before it undermines the core of the profession? Not to single you out- every profession held in traditionally high esteem can be asked the same, but it's more profound in health care when we're witnessing social darwinism administered by a warped capitalist law of the jungle.
Nutshell answer about elderly--- A good deal of Americans are incredibly immature about their own mortality. A psychological fear in our culture is being exploited. This is mirrored in medical professions orientation towards any and all means to prolong life, defined rigidly as a pulse and ignoring quality of life. Would western medicine focus more on cures instead of symptom mgmt, where would we be? Would western medicine be orientated toward enabling patients to help themselves, how would most health issues be approached? Where is the line that says some patients just need to accept a reality that their body has changed, and it's time to learn to adapt instead of fight to be 20yrs old again?
I've checked out against medical advice on more than one occasion because I couldn't tolerate being treated like a pile of meat. Poked at, shoved around, left for dead on a gurney in a hallway, and generally manhandled. Health care professionals look right through you and forget a human being is standing in front of them. I'd rather be dead of whatever mother nature delivered than accept institutionalized abuse. IMO Money made more problems in your (generalized) professions, and I question if it's made more problems than we had to begin with if I'm coming out of a hospital in worse shape than I arrived.
The subject of any societies obligation to invest in children- I concur wholeheartedly. The elderly refusing to grow up need to see if their own grandchildren are being denied medication as a result of selfishness. Medicare program of reporting abuse is used by seniors as watchdog, and I applaud their commitment. Something most depression era values held high-- sacrifice and altruism for the sake of the greater good. I've seen boomers as far less gracious. At this late date, they could stand to learn from what went before them.
Ah, but he's lived through the Clinton and Bush II death panels before Obama's.
I did hit 65 during Clinton's days in office. I hadn't really thought about that before.
I didn't know we had death panels the last 12 years before Obama. Of course, I never really had any kind of problems when I was insured by those terrible insurance companies.
I did hit 65 during Clinton's days in office. I hadn't really thought about that before.
I didn't know we had death panels the last 12 years before Obama. Of course, I never really had any kind of problems when I was insured by those terrible insurance companies.
I have to apologize, Roy, I was being sarcastic in referring to Medicare coverage/denial as a death panel.
The fact is, there exists no such thing as a 'death panel' that determines which patient is going to die and which one is not.
What does exist--privately and to a lesser extent in Medicare/Medicaid--are actuaries and claims managers who decide, based on cost vs. outcome, which procedures/drugs they will reimburse...or not.
What about the skinny patient that eats right and excercises, yet has a cholesterol level in the 300s and blood pressure that's off the chart thanks to strong family history of same?
You can't spot them as well, so I'm afraid you'll be hard-pressed to single them out on the basis of appearance.
This post reminds me of my inheritance. My mother had high blood pressure nearly all her life and she died at 79 from her last heart attack. My father had no problems with his heart as all his doctors always told him it was the strongest one they knew of. He never had any problems with blood pressure but he did kill himself for smoking nearly 80 years. He died with emphysema at 97. Now I got my inheritance from those people and although I am built like my mother's brothers I am so much like my dad in most ways. It is that damned cholesterol that will eventually get me. Mine is a very enviable 95 right now but I have to use medication to keep it down there.
Of course, I fully expect to go from cancer of the esophagus since I have been borderline for nearly 10 years now. My brother had it and lasted only about 6 months after diagnosis. He had hearburn that two or three times a week like they talk about on TV and for at least 10 years I had it all the time every day if I even thought about eating food. Not fair but true.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm also happy to hear that you received what sounds like very excellent care.
