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No, it is not a strawman. If one person says that sex for teen girls is bad because it causes low self-esteem in girls and then another points out that the low self-esteem is what CAUSES some girls to have sex and not the other way around, it is not a strawman.
But that's not the situation we are in. I don't remembery anyone saying that sex for teen girls causes low self-esteem. Dragging the topic to the cause of low self-esteem does take the discussion away from the topic at hand: the cause of teen promiscuity.
That is what I meant when I said it was a strawman. Stay on topic: the cause of teen promiscuity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett
lol, what?
I don't know about you, but I can watch TMZ all day long and not bat an eye. The sexualization really has no affect on my "horniness".
Well, we aren't exactly talking about you and me. We are talking about the general population. And I used the word "horniness" in a general sort of way, not specific "I gotta have it right now" sort of way. You know that the more you think about sex the more you want it. If you get reminded about it at every turn it becomes a bigger part of your consciousness and you tend to think it is a part of your everyday life, even if you aren't in a relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett
This just isn't true. I know plenty of women in my personal life who started having sex at some of the ages you mentioned and now they are happily married in their late 20's, not emotionally vacant.
I think in response, I will turn to someone far more articulate than me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
I often feel like I'm dealing with that when I make a statement involving a broad sweep of people in general and someone replies with what is essentially "Nuh-UH, 'cos I know this ONE person who didn't do that at all!"
Because that nullifies everyone else who does, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
I'd just like to point out that Violett is owning this thread
I will have to say that as the mother of a teenage son, my eyes have been opened to how aggressive teenage girls are!
In the 5th grade, a girl that liked my son called him and him if he was a virgin. He didn't even know how to respond to her. She invited him over for her "boy/girl" party but I would not allow it. As a matter of fact, I took the phone from him (I was listening on the other end) and told her not to call our home again!
We as parents this day and age have to be extremely diligent of our kids actions, who they are hanging out with, etc. I talk with my son and ask him if he's been offered oral sex, sex, etc. because I want him to know it's not a taboo subject in our home. I never want him to come to me afraid to talk about what's going on in his life...even if it's about sex. While he says he hasn't had it yet, I know he has been propositioned because I have spies on his Facebook and Formspring accounts.
When I was in school, we knew of the girls who were "easy". Now, you have more teachers having sex with students, students having
more casual sex with each other, oral sex on the buses....it's madness and as a parent, you can't duck your head in the sand and hope for the best. You have to get on the computer, talk with your kids, monitor their activity more than ever because one this is for sure.....it's a new era and with each passing one it brings it's own set of challenges.
I overheard a friend's daughter talking on the phone about giving bj's to a classmate. When I brought it to my friend's attention (seriously, what parent wouldn't want to know?) she insisted at first it couldn't be true, how DARE I, she and her children talked openly about everything.
Then she asked her daughter who, once confronted, said the boy had forced her into it. It was brought up at school and an investigation begun. The investigation spread and other girls insisted they were forced into this, until one girl blew the whistle (no double-entendre intended) and it turned out the girls were having a CONTEST to see how many boys they could blow in the course of a week. The rest of the girls broke down and 'fessed up.
I wonder how they feel when local boys don't respect them because they've been labeled both stupid and easy? I wonder if that image can justifiably be argued since they were having sex but didn't make any babies and I haven't heard of any disease coming from it?
There were always bad role models, there was always frisky entertainment (let me tell you, when it comes to filth, Britney's got nothing on Geoffrey Chaucer) and there were always powerful dangerous influences. But, a teenager who is looking at an Ivy League school and an illustrious career, or a promising and exciting future in some other form, isn't going to jeopardize all that for a nookie (and -- not to offend those who believe in Grand-Canyon-sized differences between men and women -- men too, even teenage boys, are perfectly capable of self-control when it's in their interest to exercise it). By contrast, a teenager who looks at her parents and sees that the limit of their world is reflexive, impoverished parenthood and the highlight of their lives is pathetic high school popularity, will probably **** a lot, and engage in other forms of attention-seeking behavior. I mean, what else is there? It's not getting worse -- it's just as bad as it's always been. Regrettable in individual cases, but hardly an end to civilization.
Redisca, this is a great point, and I think really the best point made overall because studies that have been done back this up.
For those who didn't read Redisca's wall of text that I quoted (I recommend reading it if you haven't!), she basically says that teens who don't have any hope for a better future are more likely to have sex AND to keep the baby if they get pregnant because they think have nothing else going for them.
Girls who believe a college education, or a promising career is in front of them are less likely to get pregnant and FAR LESS likely to keep the baby if they do get pregnant, because they don't see that as the be-all, end-all of what they can be.
Like I said, studies have backed up this theory and shown it to be true. Parents, if you don't want your girls to get pregnant and/or keep the baby if they do get pregnant, install the idea in them that their potential is limitless and that the world is their oyster and out there for the taking if they want it. Help them discover and achieve their dreams. It's truly the best form of birth control, imo.
I don't remembery anyone saying that sex for teen girls causes low self-esteem.
Well, people did say that. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. People said it before your quote that it was a strawman AND after your quote. People in this thread have said it over and over.
smartalx, I don't understand how you can quote these two below in the same post. You completely contradicted yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalx
We are talking about the general population. And I used the word "horniness" in a general sort of way, not specific "I gotta have it right now" sort of way. You know that the more you think about sex the more you want it. If you get reminded about it at every turn it becomes a bigger part of your consciousness and you tend to think it is a part of your everyday life, even if you aren't in a relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
I often feel like I'm dealing with that when I make a statement involving a broad sweep of people in general and someone replies with what is essentially "Nuh-UH, 'cos I know this ONE person who didn't do that at all!"
Because that nullifies everyone else who does, right?
Just because that's like that for you and maybe people you know, it doesn't mean it's like that for everyone, right? That was the point you were trying to make to me, right?
I overheard a friend's daughter talking on the phone about giving bj's to a classmate. When I brought it to my friend's attention (seriously, what parent wouldn't want to know?) she insisted at first it couldn't be true, how DARE I, she and her children talked openly about everything.
Then she asked her daughter who, once confronted, said the boy had forced her into it. It was brought up at school and an investigation begun. The investigation spread and other girls insisted they were forced into this, until one girl blew the whistle (no double-entendre intended) and it turned out the girls were having a CONTEST to see how many boys they could blow in the course of a week. The rest of the girls broke down and 'fessed up.
I wonder how they feel when local boys don't respect them because they've been labeled both stupid and easy? I wonder if that image can justifiably be argued since they were having sex but didn't make any babies and I haven't heard of any disease coming from it?
Exactly the kind of behavior out there now. It's almost as if some teens don't have lost all self-respect. Why on Earth would you want to make a CONTEST out of such a thing!!
Redisca, this is a great point, and I think really the best point made overall because studies that have been done back this up.
For those who didn't read Redisca's wall of text that I quoted (I recommend reading it if you haven't!), she basically says that teens who don't have any hope for a better future are more likely to have sex AND to keep the baby if they get pregnant because they think have nothing else going for them.
Girls who believe a college education, or a promising career is in front of them are less likely to get pregnant and FAR LESS likely to keep the baby if they do get pregnant, because they don't see that as the be-all, end-all of what they can be.
Like I said, studies have backed up this theory and shown it to be true. Parents, if you don't want your girls to get pregnant and/or keep the baby if they do get pregnant, install the idea in them that their potential is limitless and that the world is their oyster and out there for the taking if they want it. Help them discover and achieve their dreams. It's truly the best form of birth control, imo.
Studies have been done to back up most every theory; doesn't make each of them necessarily correct.
And with regard to Britney versus Chaucer, one major difference:
During Chaucer's time significantly less of the population could read, let alone be influenced by the written word; those who were read to, well, how many were they in contrast to the population at large?
Britney, on the other hand... everyone except the blind and the non-televised third worlders can watch the telly and see both her actions and her seeming immediate gratuitous return (glamour and apparent man-candy).
So the question there might not be one of content 'twixt teh Britsterz and the Wife of Bath, but it might well be one of marketability to a commensurate audience.
Exactly the kind of behavior out there now. It's almost as if some teens don't have lost all self-respect. Why on Earth would you want to make a CONTEST out of such a thing!!
Because the impact of the action has been minimized and people like to pretend they deserve respect automatically, regardless of their actions.
There's an old saying which I think tends to sum up human nature pretty well:
Build ten thousand bridges and suck one d***, to the world you're not a bridge-builder, you're a **** sucker.
Horribly crude, but there is a certain truth to it no matter how much some folks may wish to pretty it up. Simply WANTING a world where everything is open and folks' opinions are logical and fair doesn't make it so, and idealistic kids often find their opinions gratuitously clouded by the desires of the moment.
Because the impact of the action has been minimized and people like to pretend they deserve respect automatically, regardless of their actions.
There's an old saying which I think tends to sum up human nature pretty well:
Build ten thousand bridges and suck one d***, to the world you're not a bridge-builder, you're a **** sucker.
Horribly crude, but there is a certain truth to it no matter how much some folks may wish to pretty it up. Simply WANTING a world where everything is open and folks' opinions are logical and fair doesn't make it so, and idealistic kids often find their opinions gratuitously clouded by the desires of the moment.
As usual, very well said!
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IF you want to be super careful.
