Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That is the lie of science . . . that there is no assumption in the not very neutral "we don't know" so we will assume what we prefer (unintelligent intelligibility) based on NOTHING scientific that we can point to as even an interim hypothesis . . . until we do know . . . even when faced with a stronger alternative interim hypothesis than that lame non-existent one.This concern for the future arguments about BELIEFS is what is illogical. My beliefs and yours are clear . . . but they are BELIEFS . . . NOT science (even though you try to package them with science as the default without even a plausible hypothesis as to why we should . . other than our ignorance). If you had a plausible alternative to my science-based universal field/consciousness hypothesis . . . you would have produced it by now.
Again with the future arguments . . . the consciously planned and intended charge has already been explained to you using the analogous situation of our consciousness to our body . . . but ignored because the less plausible conscious control and intention of every little "particle event" is easier to refute. You do not win debates by arguing what has not been presented because they do not apply to the logical validity of what HAS been presented.No subterfuge involved . . . just step-by-step logic. I haven't thrown a fit . . . but when you act like your head is positioned inappropriately . . . I find it irresistible to point it out.
Mystic PhD !!! ... You Do Provide Such Facinating Post's !
It does appear that you may be somewhat angry and or excessively stressed when publishing some of your remarkable post's.
You stated that you "haven't thrown a fit" which indicates that you have also detected an elevated emotional level within you.
You are doing an exemplary job with your subject matter regarding this "Intriguing Thread" ..... Settle down just a bit and keep up the great work !
The atheist had better be very, very sure indeed of the path they have chosen which absolutely excludes the one and only God and His Son Jesus Christ ! There had better not be even the slightest shadow of a doubt in their convictions which denies and mocks the Living God !
Indeed one special day thats coming perhaps in the not to distant future will absolutely settle the matter once and for all. The horrendous results of a wrong decision at this particular time are final ... there will be no do overs.
Are Satan and his fires real or just fairy tales ? Friends all of us had better be really sure that we select the correct answer to this question.
Thanks / Old Sgt. Lamar
Thanks Funk, its amazing that the unbelievers have forgotten about the evils of these atheist regimes. Maybe they should go back to a similar regime like these and live there for a while to remember. They seem better at reiduling God and believers then remembering the incredible atrocities committed by these regimes.
MysticPD, sorry but you act like science is the only way at getting to the truth. There are many other ways of doing that . The problem with scientism is that they are too extreme in their beliefs. Empiricism itself is a self refuting belief and its a philophy anyways. It cannot get to the truth of beauty, love, ethics and morals as well as a host of other things. Science has great value inded but as einstein said science without religion is lame. Science is great in a laboratory so lets leave it there. The search for truth needs alot more then the narrow view of hard science scientists. This is why the majority of Doctors either believe in God or are spiritual in some way while most arent atheists or agnostics. They have seen things that science cannot possible explain. while scientists are stuck in their labs or looking at the stars.
Yes there are some religious fundamentalists but does that make christianity as a whole wrong? We cant really compare the horrid acts of atheists and their supposed utopian regimes can we?
Ever heard of pol pot, stalin, lenin, mao. D. D'souza correctly pointed out that atheism has been responsible for more deaths in the last 100 years than all the religious wars of all religions throughout history put together. I know that atheists will argue that they didnt do it in the name of atheism, but it doesnt really matter as atheism was at the core of their beliefs. Thats like saying that the pope orders the killing of a million people and yet religion wasnt responsible because he didnt specifically say he killed in the name of religion.
What did those communists say, religion is the opiate of the masses? Sure sounds like they they were practicing their atheism fully to me.
I respectively disagree.....apparently you have never heard of :
(1) THE CRUSADES
(2) JIHADS
(3) THE INQUISITATIONS
(4) HOLY WARS
(5) SALEM WITCH TRIALS
ADD to that all the violence against GAYS.......GAY suicides........other minorities......other religious minorities........heretics......scientists..... AD NAUSEUM..........perhaps you are using the "new math" I keep hearing about; but from my University education the numbers add up AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGION as the largest purveyors of WAR/MISERY and DEATH/DESTRUCTION our species has ever known!!!
Thanks Funk, its amazing that the unbelievers have forgotten about the evils of these atheist regimes. Maybe they should go back to a similar regime like these and live there for a while to remember. They seem better at reiduling God and believers then remembering the incredible atrocities committed by these regimes.
MysticPD, sorry but you act like science is the only way at getting to the truth. There are many other ways of doing that . The problem with scientism is that they are too extreme in their beliefs. Empiricism itself is a self refuting belief and its a philophy anyways. It cannot get to the truth of beauty, love, ethics and morals as well as a host of other things. Science has great value inded but as einstein said science without religion is lame. Science is great in a laboratory so lets leave it there. The search for truth needs alot more then the narrow view of hard science scientists. This is why the majority of Doctors either believe in God or are spiritual in some way while most arent atheists or agnostics. They have seen things that science cannot possible explain. while scientists are stuck in their labs or looking at the stars.
The point is, we will figure it out eventually. We always do. That's why religion is continuously falling by the wayside as time goes on.
You can't say thunder is coming from god once it's been proven how it works. You can't say sicknesses come from demons when we now have microscopes that can see bacteria and viruses.
Somehow religious people think it's good to make fun of science or scientists who admit they don't know how something works. You think it's good because then it gives you a free pass to pull stuff out of your behind like the fairy tales you believe, to explain what you don't know about.
This another testament to the falseness of religion. It adapts to every culture it's apart of in order to stay alive and propagate its virus like tendencies. If it did not adapt, it would die. Especially Christianity.
Christians used to burn witches. Christians used to be ok with slavery.
Before, the fire and brimstone approach was working fine, until the more open society of today started coming around. Now there is a christian label for everything in order to keep the younger generation satisfied and wanting more. Oh now god loves everyone. Surely a divine being or truth wouldn't need such nonsense
Any old regular joe can come up with a magical explanation for something. Someone could believe that we are actually in a simulation by some higher being whose just toying around with us i.e. Sim City.
Thanks Funk, its amazing that the unbelievers have forgotten about the evils of these atheist regimes. Maybe they should go back to a similar regime like these and live there for a while to remember. They seem better at reiduling God and believers then remembering the incredible atrocities committed by these regimes.
MysticPD, sorry but you act like science is the only way at getting to the truth. There are many other ways of doing that . The problem with scientism is that they are too extreme in their beliefs. Empiricism itself is a self refuting belief and its a philophy anyways. It cannot get to the truth of beauty, love, ethics and morals as well as a host of other things. Science has great value inded but as einstein said science without religion is lame. Science is great in a laboratory so lets leave it there. The search for truth needs alot more then the narrow view of hard science scientists. This is why the majority of Doctors either believe in God or are spiritual in some way while most arent atheists or agnostics. They have seen things that science cannot possible explain. while scientists are stuck in their labs or looking at the stars.
MATHEMATICS and SCIENCE are the only true sources of truth our species possesses. Because when they are incorrect they strive to continue to seek the truth and change accordingly. They have NO hidden agenda as the church and religion does.
IF YOU knew ANYTHING about MATHEMATICS you would know that is the purest and most honest endeavor mankind possesses.....for it has no hidden HATE/CONTROL agenda.....it only seeks to understand our physical world, through the purest of sciences....any species of this Multiverse(including GOD) uses Mathematics......PI is a MATHEMATICAL CONSTANT and pi is the same for all intelligent species.(assuming you know what that means???)
Science is the same, however some scientists will push for their own "pet" theories. When the majority of scientists agree on the theory of Electromagnetism for instance....and you have a computer and electricity......then A DUH......the theory is essentially correct.
As I have said many times before.....if you bothered to read the thread, science can and never will know every minute detail of any theory. But that is the point.....Science continues to strive for the ultimate truth and the most minute detail we humans are capable of understanding.
Religion on the other hand, in general, promotes lies and hate. It is condescending to non believers and encourages violence and false judgements against anyone who they deem unworthy. One big EGO TRIP!!!!
Just look at the Salem Witch Trials.....The Spanish Inquisation.....for God's sake you all just apologized to Galileo......for torturing him(he was correct and contradicted the lies of the church)just recently.....400 YEARS TOO LATE. WHEN will the church apologize to all the young men the pedophile priests molested?????? Another few hundred years????? You all actually encourage and condone it by doing next to nothing about this outrage.
YET you all have the nerve/gall to attack Gay people, who, like me, have been in long term loving relationships.....mine is still going 27 plus years...yet you divorce rate is over 50%. BLAME yourselves and stop blaming the gays. WE appreciate marriage because we are denied it.....you all and Zsa Zsa Gabor.....on her 8TH marriage take it as a joke and YOU are ruining the sanctity of marriage.....not me!!!
The vast majority of PEDOPHILES are HETEROSEXUAL! Which has nothing to do with their orientation; as pedophiles are a "group" which does not fit into normal, consenting adult relationships.
Last edited by PITTSTON2SARASOTA; 08-13-2010 at 10:05 PM..
Mystic PhD !!! ... You Do Provide Such Facinating Post's !
It does appear that you may be somewhat angry and or excessively stressed when publishing some of your remarkable post's.
You stated that you "haven't thrown a fit" which indicates that you have also detected an elevated emotional level within you.
You are doing an exemplary job with your subject matter regarding this "Intriguing Thread" ..... Settle down just a bit and keep up the great work !
Gods Peace / Thanks / Old Sgt. Lamar
I don't know which side of the FAITH/FOOLISHNESS fence.....LOL.....your allegiances indicate.....but I'll take the COMPLIMENT......for I endeavor to compose intriguing threads; I just wish posters would be more respectful. Because as they lash out at me....I return the "favor". This is not my style or intent...I wish to maintain an adult/intelligent debate.
But being a gay male I take GREAT OFFENSE at the INSULTS hurled my way without links or scientific evidence. HOWEVER...the thread is DISENTIGRATING into A GAY DEBATE. THIS ALSO is NOT MY INTENT.
My main points are the age of the Earth being BILLIONS of years...not Thousands. Also.... Evolution, with it's flaws...is still essentially correct. The BIG BANG...honestly is a given...I have the pictures...LOL...We are not the center of the universe either. God does not control the weather....etc...the gay issue is only one small facet of this debate; PLEASE respect that. Because as a gay man......what do you posters expect of me when I am called a sinner etc??????
Here is where you, old_cold and all your compatriots seem to get confused (or ahead of yourselves in wanting to address and refute my sentience claims). Just because you know what my BELIEFS are . . . is no excuse to inject them prematurely into the logic stream and believe you are addressing the pure logic. You are NOT. You are addressing what you KNOW it will lead to when we leave the science and reach the BELIEFS stage!!! Too damn bad!! Live with it.
I have not mentioned sentience once in this particular logic stream . . . YOU have. It is that "pinning of attributes" that you fear and want to counter . . . and you can . . . because they are ONLY BELIEFS ABOUT our Creator(God) . . . NOT part of His/Its EXISTENCE (which is incontrovertible!!) DENIAL is NOT a valid scientific premise!!!
Yes the GENERIC Creator. What you refuse to see because of your bias and presumptive screening of the logic is that WHATEVER is responsible for existence IS the Creator, period! Your ignorance of it has no bearing on that whatsoever. Your ignorance ONLY affects what you BELIEVE about it. You are assuming the reality of His/Its EXISTENCE simply by accepting reality as not a solipsist's dream. Do you have your head out of the future logic stream (or wherever it's stuck) sufficiently to see that? See above! . . . and remove your head from its current location. ::Sigh:: I accept science and what it has discerned about our Creator(God) . . . ALL OF IT!!!! What about that do you NOT understand (given your head's current location???).
You DENY the assumptions that you make . . . because it is impossible NOT to make assumptions about the baseline premise of ALL scientific investigation. Your denial does NOT make it disappear (except from your conscious mind given where your head is located).
I am perfectly forthcoming about my BELIEFS . . . WHEN we get to that stage. We are NOT there yet for me . . . but we ARE for YOU. ALL your denial is based on the No God assumptions in your BELIEFS about reality. Please clarify this known illogic for me. Keep reading the above until you remove your head from its current location . . . you will see it. The use of theist argument reveals your future concern with the logic stream . . . since I made no theistic claims yet.
Keep re-reading till it sinks in. What you consciously say is irrelevant as are your proclamations of ignorance. I have NOT asserted anything Biblical whatsoever . . .yet . . . because we are not at the my BELIEFS stage. Again with the self-protective future-oriented injection of beliefs into the pure logic stream we are actually dealing with. The only attributes we are talking about at this stage are the ones we have established scientifically . . . and they are impressively Godly to say the least. What is NOT a swindle name? "Nature?" That is the biggest swindle of them all . . . an artificial inscrutable nothing that you assign everything we discover to without explanation . . . and then use it circularly as the explanation for itself and everything else. If that is NOT a God . . . I don't know what would be. A ray of hope. Dashed by ignorant ravings with the depth of thought reminiscent of Saran wrap. I reject none of this and you should know it . . . but given where your head is probably located . . . I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.
I suggest you pull your head out again and re-read from the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
AREQUIPA...here is the "logic" in Mystics concept...I found it to be the most logical, sensible, and reasonable evidence of "God" I've ever seen anywhere. Possibly, others have presented it in the past, but I doubt in as exquisitely simple and incontrovertible a manner:
There exists "something"...the empirical evidence is that matter and energy does, in fact, exist.
We also KNOW OBJECTIVELY that "something" has the ability to further create, to establish the "laws" that control that which it has created, and it even provides what is necessary to maintain and sustain that creation. These are the KNOWN ATTRIBUTES of that "something"...not "speculated", not "believed", but objective and definitive, SCIENTIFICALLY proven attributes.
The basic attributes known to define a "God"...is to be able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
That aforementioned "something" has all those attributes...the primary being CREATOR.
Whatever other "label" that anyone wants to assign to that "something"...be it "Nature", "The Universe", "All that Exists", "Great Spirit", "Higher Power"...it IS a CREATOR...and it IS, by it's KNOWN attributes, definitively, a GOD.
Thus a CREATOR/GOD exists...and exists as that "Something", which is "Everything". Other "assigned attributes" that have been pinned on it, that are disputable/debatable not withstanding...A CREATOR/GOD EXISTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
AH . . . Grasshopper . . . you make this old man smile in gratitude for any impact you feel I may have had on your views. Thank you, GldnRule . . . you are a very insightful fellow. Be well,
Mystic
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
It isn't the complicated "impressive-looking scientific jargon" that defines Mystics' Synthesis and is the foundation of it's validity...but the simplicity of it that proves it's merit to me.
There exists "something"...the empirical evidence is that matter and energy does, in fact, exist.
We also KNOW OBJECTIVELY that "something" has the ability to further create, to establish the "laws" that control that which it has created, and it even provides what is necessary to maintain and sustain that creation. These are the KNOWN ATTRIBUTES of that "something"...not "speculated", not "believed", but objective and definitive, SCIENTIFICALLY proven attributes.
The basic attributes known to define a "God"...is to be able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
That aforementioned "something" has all those attributes...the primary being CREATOR.
Whatever other "label" that anyone wants to assign to that "something"...be it "Nature", "The Universe", "All that Exists", "Great Spirit", "Higher Power"...it IS a CREATOR...and it IS, by it's KNOWN attributes, definitively, a GOD.
Thus a CREATOR/GOD exists...and exists as that "Something", which is "Everything". Other "assigned attributes" that have been pinned on it, that are disputable/debatable not withstanding...A CREATOR/GOD EXISTS.
The "something" that exists that IS God...isn't nothing more than a default to deal with "we cannot imagine how this could have come about without 'something' having done it".
The "something" itself did, does, and continues to objectively present with...the "definitive of God attributes" of creating, controlling, and maintaining & sustaining. The level of "forward planning" involved that we are unable to know and comprehend at this time, not withstanding....it DOES objectively demonstrate the basic attributes that is only possessed by a God---Able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
God is not just the entity that made the Universe and everything in it "come about"...part of "Gods Essence" IS the Universe and everything in it. You need to get hip to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That is the lie of science . . . that there is no assumption in the not very neutral "we don't know" so we will assume what we prefer (unintelligent intelligibility) based on NOTHING scientific that we can point to as even an interim hypothesis . . . until we do know . . . even when faced with a stronger alternative interim hypothesis than that lame non-existent one.This concern for the future arguments about BELIEFS is what is illogical. My beliefs and yours are clear . . . but they are BELIEFS . . . NOT science (even though you try to package them with science as the default without even a plausible hypothesis as to why we should . . other than our ignorance). If you had a plausible alternative to my science-based universal field/consciousness hypothesis . . . you would have produced it by now.
Again with the future arguments . . . the consciously planned and intended charge has already been explained to you using the analogous situation of our consciousness to our body . . . but ignored because the less plausible conscious control and intention of every little "particle event" is easier to refute. You do not win debates by arguing what has not been presented because they do not apply to the logical validity of what HAS been presented.No subterfuge involved . . . just step-by-step logic. I haven't thrown a fit . . . but when you act like your head is positioned inappropriately . . . I find it irresistible to point it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Funk
Mystic PhD !!! ... You Do Provide Such Facinating Post's !
It does appear that you may be somewhat angry and or excessively stressed when publishing some of your remarkable post's.
You stated that you "haven't thrown a fit" which indicates that you have also detected an elevated emotional level within you.
You are doing an exemplary job with your subject matter regarding this "Intriguing Thread" ..... Settle down just a bit and keep up the great work !
I don't know which side of the FAITH/FOOLISHNESS fence.....LOL.....your allegiances indicate.....but I'll take the COMPLIMENT......for I endeavor to compose intriguing threads; I just wish posters would be more respectful. Because as they lash out at me....I return the "favor". This is not my style or intent...I wish to maintain an adult/intelligent debate.
But being a gay male I take GREAT OFFENSE at the INSULTS hurled my way without links or scientific evidence. HOWEVER...the thread is DISENTIGRATING into A GAY DEBATE. THIS ALSO is NOT MY INTENT.
My main points are the age of the Earth being BILLIONS of years...not Thousands. Also.... Evolution, with it's flaws...is still essentially correct. The BIG BANG...honestly is a given...I have the pictures...LOL...We are not the center of the universe either. God does not control the weather....etc...the gay issue is only one small facet of this debate; PLEASE respect that. Because as a gay man......what do you posters expect of me when I am called a sinner etc??????
Fortuately, it sounds like your homosexuality hasn't caused you any REAL problems. Not like starving to death...or coming back from war a double amputee. THOSE are problems.
People have the RIGHT to their OPINION.
I eat animal and bird flesh. Some think it is HORRIBLE to kill animals and birds and eat them...and think I'm terrible for doing it. Some PETA people were picketing in front of the butcher shop the other day. They made snide remarks to me as I entered...and full-bore insults as I left. Like I care what they think...didn't bother me a bit. I have RIGHT to eat meat...they have their RIGHT to think I'm bad for it...and the RIGHT to say it.
I'm a former military man. As a Veteran I've had people call me a hell of a lot worse things than I'm sure you've ever been called. It's their OPINION to think I'm a "murderer", "warmonger, or a "paid killer". I guess in the strictest definition of the terms, they're right. WHATEVER! I don't lose a seconds sleep over it. I even have a T-Shirt that says, under the heading U.S. ARMY "There are very few problems that can't be solved with a rocket-launcher and the proper attitude"....it even has a picture of an M136 AT4 underlining the words "rocket-launcher". That always gets a few comments.
I view abortion as murder...outright infanticide. I've had women execute my children (against my fervent protests) for reasons as lame, as, "I'm too young", "I want to finish my post grad studies", and the best one--"I don't want to get stretch marks and ruin my figure". So, I am vocal against abortion...that's my perogative...and my RIGHT. Just like it was those womens' RIGHT to abort their children. We all have our RIGHT to think what we choose about it...AND to say what we think.
People have the RIGHT to their OPINION about homosexuality. I don't have any bias against homosexuals...and a lot of my close friends, and some of my relatives are homosexual. But I find the act (gender on gender sex) revolting, and disgusting. Funny thing is...I directly observe actual homosexual sex on a nightly basis, because I sell it as a show at a nightclub I own. So, I'm no "stuck up religious prude". MOF there is no "religious" basis for my viewpoint...it's just my OPINION that homosex is gross.
Bottom line...you know that some people find homosexuality "sick" and "depraved"...and regardless of it being an "involuntary inner urge"...will see you as "sick and depraved" for engaging in that conduct. It's not like prejudice against race, gender, or soldiers that were drafted...that isn't something you can choose to be/do, or not be/do. It's a matter of OPINION about an elective behavior. And people have the right to their OPINION...and the right to vocalize it. Others also have the RIGHT to think what they want of them for holding that OPINION...and to vocalize that as well.
I prefer tolerance and unbiased acceptance myself...but I also realize, that isn't the reality of the world.
You've wantonly and carelessly impregnated women, not once, but several times?
Don't learn from your mistakes or just don't care?
Then dare to criticize them?
You're a piece of work.
I also suggest the type of people you associate with , that engage in sex for money, don't represent, not just homosexuals, but many/most(?)hetrosexuals either.
Homosexual sex is revolting to me, too.....but so is paid straight sex....or even any sex with hundreds of men I have met that I can bring to mind.
In this day and age I can't believe people still maintain that homosexuality is choice rather than biology......among, that is, those not engaged in trading their bodies for cash.
Fortuately, it sounds like your homosexuality hasn't caused you any REAL problems. Not like starving to death...or coming back from war a double amputee. THOSE are problems.
People have the RIGHT to their OPINION.
I eat animal and bird flesh. Some think it is HORRIBLE to kill animals and birds and eat them...and think I'm terrible for doing it. Some PETA people were picketing in front of the butcher shop the other day. They made snide remarks to me as I entered...and full-bore insults as I left. Like I care what they think...didn't bother me a bit. I have RIGHT to eat meat...they have their RIGHT to think I'm bad for it...and the RIGHT to say it.
I'm a former military man. As a Veteran I've had people call me a hell of a lot worse things than I'm sure you've ever been called. It's their OPINION to think I'm a "murderer", "warmonger, or a "paid killer". I guess in the strictest definition of the terms, they're right. WHATEVER! I don't lose a seconds sleep over it. I even have a T-Shirt that says, under the heading U.S. ARMY "There are very few problems that can't be solved with a rocket-launcher and the proper attitude"....it even has a picture of an M136 AT4 underlining the words "rocket-launcher". That always gets a few comments.
I view abortion as murder...outright infanticide. I've had women execute my children (against my fervent protests) for reasons as lame, as, "I'm too young", "I want to finish my post grad studies", and the best one--"I don't want to get stretch marks and ruin my figure". So, I am vocal against abortion...that's my perogative...and my RIGHT. Just like it was those womens' RIGHT to abort their children. We all have our RIGHT to think what we choose about it...AND to say what we think.
People have the RIGHT to their OPINION about homosexuality. I don't have any bias against homosexuals...and a lot of my close friends, and some of my relatives are homosexual. But I find the act (gender on gender sex) revolting, and disgusting. Funny thing is...I directly observe actual homosexual sex on a nightly basis, because I sell it as a show at a nightclub I own. So, I'm no "stuck up religious prude". MOF there is no "religious" basis for my viewpoint...it's just my OPINION that homosex is gross.
Bottom line...you know that some people find homosexuality "sick" and "depraved"...and regardless of it being an "involuntary inner urge"...will see you as "sick and depraved" for engaging in that conduct. It's not like prejudice against race, gender, or soldiers that were drafted...that isn't something you can choose to be/do, or not be/do. It's a matter of OPINION about an elective behavior. And people have the right to their OPINION...and the right to vocalize it. Others also have the RIGHT to think what they want of them for holding that OPINION...and to vocalize that as well.
I prefer tolerance and unbiased acceptance myself...but I also realize, that isn't the reality of the world.
I also know.....bottom line...... that some posters are bottom feeders!!!!! Like the organism from the original; STAR TREK series that FED ON HATE!!!!! And they will wither and die without it; which is the ultimate fate of all "EVIL" people!!!!!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You Do Provide Such Facinating Post's !
