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I believe that some of us(believers and non believers) already share an existance in that middle space you talk about, June. It is a gentle ,loving space of understanding..
Or not understanding but accepting nonetheless.
At least as long as they do no harm to themselves or others.
I believe that some of us(believers and non believers) already share an existance in that middle space you talk about, June. It is a gentle ,loving space of understanding..
No, I didn't. Hence my eagerness to grant Yeledaf's request for forgiveness.
I think what happened there was that my post wasn't fully read and/or fully understood.
What I said was....
Which should be read like this "Everything that the term 'God' encompasses makes that being worthy of worship."
Let's talk about big IFs .
If there is a God, then by definition that God would be worthy of worship. He/she is a god. My GOD(The Christian God) is, according to what I believe, not a god but rather THE GOD. If you can get your arms around that (and I can't fully) then I don't see how anyone has a hard time understanding how that being is worthy of worship. If you reject God, then of course you think that's egotistical or something, but to the believer, it's just Christian 'common sense'.
If God is God, then He's God. Simple really.
Now I'd like to say something regarding Mooseketeer's post.
Of course, I can only respond to this as a Christian. Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc will have to answer from thier perspective.
Anyway, if my worship of God only involves, as you say "time spent on prayers, reading the bible,or in churches" then you'd be right. That's not true worship, not by itself. But if you marry that with the rest of your sentence where you said time should be "spent on relieving other people's suffering", then that's real worship.
Look at what Jesus said:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. Mark 12:28-34
It's both, Mooseketeer. Loving God AND loving your neighbor.
If I love God, but don't help my neighbor, I'm not honoring God and I'm not worshiping. No, I'm in a self-centered relationship with me. If God's at the center, I HAVE to love and care for my neighbor.
That being said, if I love my neighbor and don't honor and worship God, I'm disrespecting God and, really, my service is my God. I'm now works based and God is out of the equation.
Worship of God is not limited to singing, praying, preaching, etc....worship is a way of life. That door I hold open for someone and that smile i give to a stranger because I care for them, is an act of worship, if I make it that way. For a Christian, most everything we try and do should be an act of worship.
Because worship is just the place where what we do meets what we claim to believe.
Just trying to follow you here, and I can appreciate that this is a sensitive area, so again I offer my apologies in advance if I offend anyone, because that is not my intention.
1. Above, you say "If there is a God, then by definition that God would be worthy of worship." I guess I have to go back to my OP, and ask -- why? What about The God makes it incumbent upon us, his creations, to worship Him? Isn't he already -- well, God? How is his need for worship logical "by definition", as you claim?
2. Above, you say "If I love God, but don't help my neighbor, I'm not honoring God and I'm not worshiping." Where did Jesus mention worship? How did you move from Love to Worship? Aren't those two different and distinct ideas? Or is there an Aramaic translation dichotomy of which I am unaware?
Thank you in advance for your answer. And thanks to all the thoughtful folks in this thread.
Just trying to follow you here, and I can appreciate that this is a sensitive area, so again I offer my apologies in advance if I offend anyone, because that is not my intention.
I'm not offended. I don't mind discourse, as long as it can remain friendly and is free of personal comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
1. Above, you say "If there is a God, then by definition that God would be worthy of worship." I guess I have to go back to my OP, and ask -- why? What about The God makes it incumbent upon us, his creations, to worship Him? Isn't he already -- well, God? How is his need for worship logical "by definition", as you claim?
Well, again, I'll go back to my IFs. If there is a God in Heaven that loved me enough to create me and send His only Son to pay a price I can't pay. And IF that God shows me His love and care by constantly being a part of my life, basically IF the God of the Bible is real, and I believe He is, then that God is truly worthy of worship. Because He needs it? No, because He deserves it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
2. Above, you say "If I love God, but don't help my neighbor, I'm not honoring God and I'm not worshiping." Where did Jesus mention worship? How did you move from Love to Worship? Aren't those two different and distinct ideas? Or is there an Aramaic translation dichotomy of which I am unaware?
In my opinion, there is no difference. Worship would be adoration or reverent affection, a pouring out of myself and a focus on my heart's desire. For me the idea of worship is obedience, striving, trying to work on shaping my thoughts and actions to reflect Christ. That's what worship is to me. Jesus said 'If you love me, you'll obey my commandments.' I do love Him, so I try and obey His commandments. And that 'trying' is an act of worship.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:1-2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
Thank you in advance for your answer. And thanks to all the thoughtful folks in this thread.
If we look through history at those who demanded worship, we see that they invariably are totalitarian tyrants. The God of the OT seems to fit this description as well.
Maybe God demanded worship because Judaism is a monotheistic religion? Most other religions at the time that the Torah was written down were polytheistic so God demanded that the Jews only worshipped Him and no one else?
Therefore according to the OT only God became worthy of worship?
For me, worship or reverence is about respect, and like most things in this world, respect is a 2 way street.
When one truely respects God, then God truely respects them.
It's not just about if one worships God in church ceremonies necessarily, and then God will respect you. It's about having true respect for God's ways.
The Bible says that God is not a respecter of persons. That's because God can be as retaliatory towards man as man has been towards God and His perfect ways.
And that's another reason why people worship Him in voluntary devotional ceremonies and rituals. It's to help people get to know God and His ways better. It serves as a reminder to people to not forget to respect God and His ways. So that's an educational component of church worship. If a person wants to continue their education about God so that they don't forget about God's existence and omnipotence, they study and adore Him for his compassion, and learn to ask for forgiveness for trespasses against Him and our fellow man for our mistakes and sins, since they are mistakes against Him and his perfection.
And we worship and celebrate God's only son Jesus Christ because He is our hero and savior. He has the power of God and our undying love and respect.
So God doesn't force us to respect Him and worship Him as any atheist here can well attest. But offering respect is right and just for us, just like when anybody apologizes for their honest mistakes.
As long as no one offends God's perfect sensibilities, then no harm, no foul.
But it's important to realize that when people adopt an evil attitude or way with people, then what comes around goes around. It just the nature of the Karma of the universe. Ceremonial worship really doesn't make any difference to God, unless its goodness rubs off on people and makes an imperfect world a little more perfect.
Since truth and reason have value in the universe, then worship is truth and reason, and there's truth and reason about respecting God and the nature of His universe, where we are natural trespassers. Whether a person wants to call Him God, Karma, or the Holy Spirit, I don't think that it makes much of a difference to Him.
If the amount of love we make is equal to the amount of love that we take, then worshipping God is a way to help increase the overall amount of love that we can all generate, partake in & enjoy worldwide.
Karma is the consequences of an action. Karma is not an entity or a thing, it's certainly not a god creature.
I'm not going to worship anyone or anything.
My feeling is that someone/thing that "demands" worship is not worthy of it.
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Or not understanding but accepting nonetheless. 
