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Religion does not validate moral choices for most of the world. Are you saying that only your brand of religion can make moral decisions?
The war in Iraq is not moral. George Bush said that "the Almighty" told him to kill the Iraqis. Is refusing medical care to indigent kids moral?
I, unfortunately, find less of a moral compass with most christians I run across, than with any other group.
YMMV.
Sorry to hear that. Believe me, some of us do take our beliefs seriously. As for the war in Iraq, I agree, it is not moral. George Bush is delusional. And whoever is refusing the medical care is certainly not acting on the compassion God wants his children to have. I once fell on the mistake of looking at the actions of christians, or any other religion for that matter, to qualify their belief system. What people forget is that the difference between christians and others is that they believe in a merciful God. But christians are boudn to a body that seeks self-gratification and is self-seeking just like everyone else, but we are meant to act differently. Do we win all the battles against our selfish motives? No. Does that make us less in the eyes of God? No. He knows our shortcomings and he still chooses to love is. And so we go back and try again. Isnt it funny however that most people have higher standards for Christians than for anyone else? People have standars from christians that they dont even have of themselves. Makes me wonder why quite frankly. We christians are expected to be fair, compassionate and loving and if we fail to act upon those expectations then our religion is bad, or our God is faulty. It is true, Christians fail and stumble and screw up. But that does not mean that God told us to do so. He wants us to choose right. He didnt tell Bush to attack Iraq. Bush is using it as an excuse to shield his self seeking motives and to keep americans under fear. The problem with bush is not christianity, the problem with bush is the capitalist system that he lives in and that everyone in this nation endorses. Even people who criticize the war now WILL demand that gas be sold to the states at cheaper prices and they will still buy fruit from central american countries where American corporations are stealing and cheating the labour of people and paying a misery for what should be paid fairly. God is against these things, but somehow it is always his fault, and everybody does it but Christians are the root of all evil. Such argument would NEVER be admitted in any academic writting or in any court of law, but people choose to believe it because somehow it makes 'the other' look more vile than themselves. So yes you keep on believing that christians are the evil in the world. Those of us who want to be like God truly wants us to be, will keep on trying to live up to your expectations of righteousness. But in the meantime, everytime you eat a strawberry or you put gas in your car, remember, that it got to you not by fair and just means, but by abusing and manipulating things in order to get the most profit. Remember this, it is that way NOT not because God wanted the world to be unfair, but because all of us are selfish enough to believe that we deserve better than the rest of the world. Go ahead and blame us if it makes you feel better about yourself. We dont mind. In fact, we forgive you. Not because we believe we are better, but because we know we are not and yet we have been forgiven are He keeps on loving.
You are wrong however. Religion DOES validate moral choices for most of the world, perhaps not all, but most of it yes.
Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, Arab leaders say / Palestinian officials confirm comments from documentary (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/10/07/MNGNVF3SFM1.DTL - broken link)
(10-07) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- President Bush told two high-ranking Palestinian officials that he had been told by God to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and then create a Palestinian state to bring peace to the Middle East, they recall during a documentary on Middle East peace that airs next week in Britain.
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God,' " said Nabil Shaath, who was the Palestinian foreign minister at the time of a top-level meeting with Bush in June 2003. Mahmoud Abbas, then Palestinian prime minister and now the Palestinian Authority president, was also present for the conversation with Bush.
"God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it," Shaath quotes the president as saying in the three-part series.
I believe you brought up christian morality and that without religion there was no morality. I was providing an example of christian morality.
btw, I had two other links from different sources for the same issue.
Originally Posted by pensivesedition
Yet strangely all Christian nations had no qualms about slavery and feeling superior towards heathens. They conquered the heathens and took their lands and ruled over them as if they were God Himself. And they all did that in the name of the church.
Nietzsche never denied that the soul thrives on value. With his worldfamous sentence God is dead, most people do not read the rest And we killed him. So Nietzsche merely meant that man had killed God which, if not careful, would result in nihilism.
On Marxism or communism:
In the end what others understood of communism or Marxism baffled Marx himself.
Christian nations did what most civilizations have done. Slavery was common to most human civilizations even before christianity. The difference is that the very same message that european immigrants in the americas for example, used to legitimize their behaviour towards other races and slavery, was prescisely the message that condemned the behaviour and brought freedom. The same thing happend with the status of women and other issues. Slavery European style, had to do more with their feelings of racial superiority than with christianity, which in any case was quite ignorant. Like I said, yes, christans do screw up. And so we try again.
Nietzce said much more than that and his philosophy was much more complex than you are attepmting here to portray. In any case, I did not even mention that part of his philosophy, but now that you mention it.....nihilism is inescapable if you take God out of the picture. And for all practical terms, the reason why his theory of the strongman came into place. No, that is not all that he meant, and he was not worried about nihilism at all, and in any case, why would he? Nihilism was irrelevant to him in. And so... with all due respect and in the context of this interesting conversation... I am not sure what you were trying to get at with your post.
As far as Marx goes, i find it interesting that it is important to make the difference between what Marx trully believed and what people made out of his philosophy. Should we not measure christianity by the same standard?
I have to say that a lot of Marx's philosophy was interestingly close to concepts taught by Jesus. Not all of course, but a good part of it.
Thanks for the interesting conversation
Last edited by pensivesedition; 10-18-2007 at 06:13 AM..
Religion DOES validate moral choices for most of the world, perhaps not all, but most of it yes.
Only for the religious, those who follow a religion. And a lot of people who profess morality are the opposite.
Personal aside to pensive, try this link: NoodleFood: 50 Bush Quotes on Religion (http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/2007/10/50-bush-quotes-on-religion.html - broken link)
Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, Arab leaders say / Palestinian officials confirm comments from documentary (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/10/07/MNGNVF3SFM1.DTL - broken link)
(10-07) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- President Bush told two high-ranking Palestinian officials that he had been told by God to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and then create a Palestinian state to bring peace to the Middle East, they recall during a documentary on Middle East peace that airs next week in Britain.
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God,' " said Nabil Shaath, who was the Palestinian foreign minister at the time of a top-level meeting with Bush in June 2003. Mahmoud Abbas, then Palestinian prime minister and now the Palestinian Authority president, was also present for the conversation with Bush.
"God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it," Shaath quotes the president as saying in the three-part series.
I believe you brought up christian morality and that without religion there was no morality. I was providing an example of christian morality.
btw, I had two other links from different sources for the same issue.
If Bush actually said this, and it is not made up by Nabil, then like I said he is delusional. Bush claims to be Christian because he knows that is the way he will be more popular...not because he is actually one. You are wrong. This is not christian morality in the least. I have never even thought of Bush as a christian leader...ever.
Religion DOES validate moral choices for most of the world, perhaps not all, but most of it yes.
Only for the religious, those who follow a religion. And a lot of people who profess morality are the opposite.
Personal aside to pensive, try this link: NoodleFood: 50 Bush Quotes on Religion (http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/2007/10/50-bush-quotes-on-religion.html - broken link)
You forget that most of the world is in fact, religious.
Religion DOES validate moral choices for most of the world, perhaps not all, but most of it yes.
Only for the religious, those who follow a religion. And a lot of people who profess morality are the opposite.
Personal aside to pensive, try this link: NoodleFood: 50 Bush Quotes on Religion (http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/2007/10/50-bush-quotes-on-religion.html - broken link)
I am sorry if you are American Chiegirl.... but quite frankly, your president makes me want to puke. I am sorry you picked him as your example of christianity. I wish I could show you otherwise and show you people who live mindful of others and who are compassionate and loving. I have met many in my lifetime, just as I have met non-christians that are amazing people. I apologize to you for all of us.
pensive, I work around the US military but rarely live in the US (didn't vote for that idiot). I've seen more than my share of christian morality throughout my life, in christian schools, in the destruction of Jain and Hindu temples in the US... in the military community, yes, I've seen my share. I've seen the aftermath of it in southeastern countries as well. It's not pretty, IMO.
I prefer atheistic or non christian morality any day of the week. To me, it's softer, kinder and more gentle to those who don't believe as they do.
If we look through history at those who demanded worship, we see that they invariably are totalitarian tyrants. The God of the OT seems to fit this description as well.
THen we will assume that you read the old testament in its entirety and that you read it not to truly find out who this God really was but only to try and pick on what would make you dislike him.
Your statement is not a fair statement if it is a biased one. Yes there are stories in the OT that we would not understand in our life time. Seen from the cultural perspective of the time and the value that God places on the content of our character instead of our physical commodity or pleasure. THere is much mercy found in the Olt Testament, but if what you want to see is anything but that, then there is not much chances of an intellectual discussion on a set of assumptions you have chosen to adopt regardless if your own perceptions are correct or not.
pensive, I work around the US military but rarely live in the US (didn't vote for that idiot). I've seen more than my share of christian morality throughout my life, in christian schools, in the destruction of Jain and Hindu temples in the US... in the military community, yes, I've seen my share. I've seen the aftermath of it in southeastern countries as well. It's not pretty, IMO.
I prefer atheistic or non christian morality any day of the week. To me, it's softer, kinder and more gentle to those who don't believe as they do.
It's unfortunate but that's my life experience.
Again, to you I am sorry. Let me clarify this again however. I have been writting about this for a while now, but I guess I need to bring it back once again. Christian morality is NOT the same as so called christian actions. That is, the morality itself has nothing to be condemable, the actions of those who claim to be christian but live otherwise, that is another story.
Judging things by this standard is a phenomena that is almost exclusively applied to christians. Let me give you an example.
Earlier it was said that Marx actually did not believe in marxism the way people began to practice it and understood it. When we talk about muslims and 9/11, we say that only the fanatics of Al Qaeda believe in such radical actions, but the true islamic teaching does not support such actions. Yet if someoen that claims to be christian acts immorally, then it must be because the morality of christianity is wrong. Why is it that the rules change for christians??
This is not only unfair, but illogical. I have met my share of atheist that have done horrible things...(like knowingly giving aids to someone), or people of other religions messing up big time. 9/11 alone would make me judge Islam as a despotic religion and wiht a value system that is faulty and erroneous, but I dont. I can also tell you that I have seen much more harm done by people who claim to have no standing in this issue than with anything else yet. But it is ok, because noone expects much from anyone else who is non-christian.
This double standard is tiredsome and loathsome. I would much prefer if you measured christian morality not by the shortcomings of those who claim it as their faith, but by the morality itself.
So let me get this right.... so loving my neighbour as I love myself is wrong? and being compassionate and forgiving to others is harmful? So seeking peace instead of war is not good?? Taking care of the vulnerable is unfair?? Be truthful to yourself and others is bad?
What moralty are you talking about?
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And they all did that in the name of the church.
