Praying For Those Who Are Not Saved (Revelation, ghost, gospels)
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'Verily the creation of each one of you is brought together in his mother’s belly for forty days in the form of a seed, then he is a clot of blood for a like period, then a morsel of flesh for a like period, then an angel is sent to him who blows the breath of life into him and who is commanded about four matters: to write down his means of livelihood, his life span, his actions, and whether he will be happy or wretched....'
Please explain how you can have a free-will choice to do other than what the 'angel' has pre-determined for you.
If Allah has determined that your livelihood will be a plumber can you choose to be a carpenter?
If Allah has determined that you will be rich can you choose to be poor?
If Allah has determined that your life span will be 70 years, can you live until you are 90?
If Allah has determined your actions can you choose to do different actions?
If Allah has determined that you will be wretched, can you make the choice to be happy?
So you see, despite your claim that your god does not pre-determine your life, your own holy book says otherwise...on at least FOUR of the main factors of your life.
You're busted!
lol, man you claim to be at the age of my grand father yet you still are not able to understand the same point over and over and over again.
When four matters are written by the Angel, are they also revealed to the new born?
The answer is, no.
You still can't answer a simple question about my inquiry of using your intelligence, logic and common sense to make a choice of jumping into a pool of fire or a pool of water if I already wrote the answer on a piece of paper without showing it to you?
lol, man you claim to be at the age of my grand father yet you still are not able to understand the same point over and over and over again.
I understand the point very well thanks. Your claim was that 'God DOES NOT, DOES NOT and DOES NOT AGAIN predetermine our lives' (paraphrasing) but your holy book clearly indicated that at least four important aspect of your life ARE predetermined.
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When four matters are written by the Angel, are they also revealed to the new born?
The answer is, no.
You still aren't getting it are you. Please try to pay attention before one of us dies. I do not know what the pre-determination is. The question is, having had things predetermined in my life, how can I make any free-will choices that will change what has been pre-determined? Now please. Before you open your mouth, go away for a day and think about what I am actually saying instead answering what you THINK I am saying.
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You still can't answer a simple question about my inquiry of using your intelligence, logic and common sense to make a choice of jumping into a pool of fire or a pool of water if I already wrote the answer on a piece of paper without showing it to you?
What the hell is wrong with you? I ANSWERED IT! Here is what I said....
'Of course. But what you are just not getting is, if the choice has already been made for me since before I was born as stated in the Bible, how do I have a choice?'
Now YOU answer my question that you have avoided such as....
...and what evil deed has the infant born with disabilities done; the baby born without arm and legs; the baby born with mental disabilities? Do tell?
If Allah has determined that your livelihood will be a plumber can you choose to be a carpenter?
If Allah has determined that you will be rich can you choose to be poor?
If Allah has determined that your life span will be 70 years, can you live until you are 90?
If Allah has determined your actions can you choose to do different actions?
If Allah has determined that you will be wretched, can you make the choice to be happy?
I am walking down the road. I come to a fork in the road. The deity knows through the predetermination of my life before I was born, that I will take the right fork. Can I make a 'free-will' decision to take the left fork?
Thanks. Odd that he doesn't seem to want to disclose that. He's going to have a hell of a shock when he gets to his 'paradise' and discovers that it's not virgins but grapes.
Or if by "virgins" they meant something like this.
I understand the point very well thanks. Your claim was that 'God DOES NOT, DOES NOT and DOES NOT AGAIN predetermine our lives' (paraphrasing) but your holy book clearly indicated that at least four important aspect of your life ARE predetermined.
Go back and read my posts again. I already answered it. There are some things that are not in our control - like accidents, sickness, time of our birth and deaths, the amount of resources available to us during our life time etc ,,, but for the major part of our lives, we have a choice where we should use our intelligence, logic and common sense to take a decisions.
And in the end, we will be responsible for our choices based on free will.
We are not responsible for the stuff which is not in our hands, like the time of our birth, the time of our death etc
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You still aren't getting it are you. Please try to pay attention before one of us dies. I do not know what the pre-determination is. The question is, having had things predetermined in my life, how can I make any free-will choices that will change what has been pre-determined? Now please. Before you open your mouth, go away for a day and think about what I am actually saying instead answering what you THINK I am saying.
Read above. "Only a very few things are pre-determined, like time of birth, unforseen accidents, unforeseen sickness etc.
For the most part of our lives, God has the knowledge of future as to what you are going to do with your free choice within the means given to you.
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What the hell is wrong with you? I ANSWERED IT! Here is what I said....
'Of course. But what you are just not getting is, if the choice has already been made for me since before I was born as stated in the Bible, how do I have a choice?'
I don't follow bible so can't answer it. Sorry.
You can have this argument and highlight this moment of your life as a victory.
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Now YOU answer my question that you have avoided such as....[i]
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...and what evil deed has the infant born with disabilities done; the baby born without arm and legs; the baby born with mental disabilities? Do tell?
I have absolutely no idea. My knowledge is not greater than God's knowledge. God does whatever he wants as he knows the best.
I will be more worried about what contributions and efforts I may have extended to help such infants with disabilities, as I will be answerable of MY ACTIONS.
I won't be questioned about why a child was born with a disability. But I will be questioned about what I have done (even to a very small extent, like pray for their good health, wishing them good, volunteer work) if not, opening my wallet to give charity for such kids?
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If Allah has determined that your livelihood will be a plumber can you choose to be a carpenter?
If Allah has determined that you will be rich can you choose to be poor?
If Allah has determined that your life span will be 70 years, can you live until you are 90?
If Allah has determined your actions can you choose to do different actions?
If Allah has determined that you will be wretched, can you make the choice to be happy?
^^
As oxymoron as it gets.
For me to change the my destiny from being a 'plumber' to an 'electrician', I FIRST HAVE TO KNOW THAT MY DESTINY IS A PLUMBER !! How hard is it for your understand?
If I don't know that Allah has pre-determined me as a plumber, how can I change it from a plumber to an electrician?
So I don't worry about changing it from being a plumber to an electrician. I will use my intelligence and logic to see how can I choose a profession that not only I like, but it also pays good, so that I can take care of my family and also give charity from what I earn.
I am not worried about life expansion from 70 to 90, I am worried about how many good deeds I have can do within my means, and also avoid the bad deeds with my best effort, before the last curtain falls on my eyes.
The idea of changing from 70 to 90 is really laughable. I first have to know that my life is 70 before I change it to 90.
You go to bed at night, and you don't even know for sure if you will wake up in the next morning - and you talking about changing from 70 years to 90 years?
It's not about the length of time, it's about what have you done with it? Quality vs Quantity.
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I am walking down the road. I come to a fork in the road. The deity knows through the predetermination of my life before I was born, that I will take the right fork. Can I make a 'free-will' decision to take the left fork?
Read above, for the millionth time. How do you know that the deity has pre-determined the right fork for you?
You can change it, only if you know it.
I don't need to read your posts again. I know exactly what you said. You said that there was no way, never, never, ever that your god predetermined your life and yet your own holy book says that you are wrong on at least FOUR points.... your livelihood is predetermined, your life span, your actions and your whether you will be rich or poor,. It's right there in your own book. They are not my words!
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I already answered it. There are some things that are not in our control - like accidents, sickness, time of our birth and deaths, the amount of resources available to us during our life time etc ,,, but for the major part of our lives, we have a choice where we should use our intelligence, logic and common sense to take a decisions.
And in the end, we will be responsible for our choices based on free will.
Not according to your book. You have no choice over your livelihood, your life span, your actions or your financial status.
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We are not responsible for the stuff which is not in our hands, like the time of our birth, the time of our death etc
Do we have a choice to choose our livelihood, our life span, our action or whether we be rich or poor? According to your book we do not.
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Read above. "Only a very few things are pre-determined, like time of birth, unforseen accidents, unforeseen sickness etc.
Well we are making some progress. We have gone from you insisting that 'God' DOES NOT, DOES NOT AND DOES NOT AGAIN predetermine our lives to... well yeah, he does pre-determine some things.
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For the most part of our lives, God has the knowledge of future as to what you are going to do with your free choice within the means given to you.
Then if he knows, you have no free will to change what you decide to do. QED.
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I don't follow bible so can't answer it. Sorry.
It says it in your particular book too.
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I have absolutely no idea. My knowledge is not greater than God's knowledge. God does whatever he wants as he knows the best.
I will be more worried about what contributions and efforts I may have extended to help such infants with disabilities, as I will be answerable of MY ACTIONS.
I won't be questioned about why a child was born with a disability. But I will be questioned about what I have done (even to a very small extent, like pray for their good health, wishing them good, volunteer work) if not, opening my wallet to give charity for such kids?
Yet that is how your god had them born. It is his will that they were born that way. Why do you feel the need to try to undo his will?
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For me to change the my destiny from being a 'plumber' to an 'electrician', I FIRST HAVE TO KNOW THAT MY DESTINY IS A PLUMBER !! How hard is it for your understand? If I don't know that Allah has pre-determined me as a plumber, how can I change it from a plumber to an electrician?
Don't be so dim for goodness sake. It has nothing to do with YOU knowing. I have explained it at least four times already. You don't have to know ANYTHING about your destiny. Your god has destined you to be a plumber. You start work as a plumber but after two years you decide you don't like plumbing and you want to be an electrician. Can you become an electrician, contrary to your God's predetermination of your livelihood? It's a bloody simple question. Your constant sidestepping of it leads me to believe that you don't have an answer.
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I am not worried about life expansion from 70 to 90,...
The question was. If your god has predetermined your length of life on Earth, can you shorten it?
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Read above, for the millionth time. How do you know that the deity has pre-determined the right fork for you?
You can change it, only if you know it.
This is futile. Five times it has now been explained to you. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you have a serious comprehension problem. I'm done with it. Mystic...you were right lad. There is no simply no point in wasting any more effort on him.
I don't need to read your posts again. I know exactly what you said. You said that there was no way, never, never, ever that your god predetermined your life and yet your own holy book says that you are wrong on at least FOUR points.... your livelihood is predetermined, your life span, your actions and your whether you will be rich or poor,. It's right there in your own book. They are not my words!
Not according to your book. You have no choice over your livelihood, your life span, your actions or your financial status.
Do we have a choice to choose our livelihood, our life span, our action or whether we be rich or poor? According to your book we do not.
Well we are making some progress. We have gone from you insisting that 'God' DOES NOT, DOES NOT AND DOES NOT AGAIN predetermine our lives to... well yeah, he does pre-determine some things.
Then if he knows, you have no free will to change what you decide to do. QED.
It says it in your particular book too.
Yet that is how your god had them born. It is his will that they were born that way. Why do you feel the need to try to undo his will?
Don't be so dim for goodness sake. It has nothing to do with YOU knowing. I have explained it at least four times already. You don't have to know ANYTHING about your destiny. Your god has destined you to be a plumber. You start work as a plumber but after two years you decide you don't like plumbing and you want to be an electrician. Can you become an electrician, contrary to your God's predetermination of your livelihood? It's a bloody simple question. Your constant sidestepping of it leads me to believe that you don't have an answer.
The question was. If your god has predetermined your length of life on Earth, can you shorten it?
This is futile. Five times it has now been explained to you. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you have a serious comprehension problem. I'm done with it. Mystic...you were right lad. There is no simply no point in wasting any more effort on him.
OK, so looks like your destiny is pre-determined. I give up. You win.
Now, go ahead and be brave enough to support your belief by jumping into the pool of fire, since that was your destiny.
Hey, I'd take 'im, at least he's young and eager. Probably no ED, either. Come here, little boy, you'll think you're the one who died and went to heaven...okay, just hold still and try not to hurt yourself. THANK YOU, GOD!
But, oh, wait. Women don't get to crush virgins in heaven, right? Just the old dudes with hair sprouting out of every possible...whatever who did all the right stuff.
No wonder you like this religion so much! I'm beginning to see now why you'd fight tooth and nail against logic, reason and sense, practicality, logistics and even fairness (going back to how we women don't get to scr*w 72 guys in heaven no matter how "good" we are in life...oh yeah, and that whole "God burns people up because he can" bit) in order to cling to the idea of it. All that is kind of making more sense now. If I were on the winning end of all this by the luck of the Genetic Dice Roll I'd probably be a true believer too.
Last edited by JerZ; 07-24-2016 at 02:54 PM..
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