Praying For Those Who Are Not Saved (New Testament, difference, opinion)
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Nice try. I merely pointed out that Peter & John, who walked with Jesus, claimed to be the writers of some of the NT.
There's no proof that Peter and John walked with Jesus. There's just a written story.
There's no proof that the people claiming to be Peter and John were telling the truth even if there WAS actually a Peter and a John.
It is on you to prove it if you want us to believe it. It is NOT on us to disprove it and until then, we must believe it, LOL. That is...just such bizarre reasoning.
Should I believe I can "LOSE 30 LBS. IN 30 DAYS with this ONE WEIRD TRICK!" and nod my head and agree, and send the link to all my friends, and go door to door proselytizing about this ONE WEIRD TRICK until I can prove it isn't a true statement? (Which I will never be able to do if a hundred people, whether lying or deluded or whatever, come up and claim it did work for them and therefore, I must be doing something wrong...another rather repeating M.O. among the religious, incidentally...we must be "doing something wrong.")
Should a child believe the stranger in the car who says "Get in quick! Your mom is sick! I'll take you to her!" because she doesn't have any proof the stranger is lying? I mean the stranger SAID he was telling the truth. Therefore, it's on the child to determine that it's untrue, otherwise she should step into the car.
Your reasoning isn't just weird, it's dangerous, in so many ways. It is dangerous and potentially harmful to believe someone's random words with no proof whatsoever. For more than 15 centuries, your reasoning was dangerous in that it literally put people to death for heresy...for not "just believing" the words. Today, it's dangerous because "just believing" since we "can't prove" Paul didn't say X and John didn't say Y leads to invasions of the beliefs (they're not truths...they're beliefs) into schools, into law, into women's uteri, and so on. Just believing with no proof is a big, big problem, besides being intellectually lazy.
Claims such as the ones you're making - the ones the Bible makes - aren't random conversation pieces somebody can just laugh off later as another whopper from Uncle Earl. They can be used, and have been used to control, to harm, to interfere, to stop knowledge and scientific education. Ergo to "believe" them is a weighty thing indeed and there is a responsibility in obtaining proof of them BEFORE ordering one's life, and attempting to order others' lives, around them.
But besides all that, in any argument of a claim it is on the person making the claim to provide proof that the claim is true...not the other way around. To say otherwise is so ludicrous as to almost not be believed. Prove a unicorn NEVER came into my backyard. Prove I can't do secret invisible magic you can't see. Prove Thor never spoke to me and directed me to break up the local church with my hammer. Ridiculous...right?
There's no proof that Peter and John walked with Jesus. There's just a written story.
There's no proof that the people claiming to be Peter and John were telling the truth even if there WAS actually a Peter and a John.
It is on you to prove it if you want us to believe it. It is NOT on us to disprove it and until then, we must believe it, LOL. That is...just such bizarre reasoning.
Should I believe I can "LOSE 30 LBS. IN 30 DAYS with this ONE WEIRD TRICK!" and nod my head and agree, and send the link to all my friends, and go door to door proselytizing about this ONE WEIRD TRICK until I can prove it isn't a true statement? (Which I will never be able to do if a hundred people, whether lying or deluded or whatever, come up and claim it did work for them and therefore, I must be doing something wrong...another rather repeating M.O. among the religious, incidentally...we must be "doing something wrong.")
Should a child believe the stranger in the car who says "Get in quick! Your mom is sick! I'll take you to her!" because she doesn't have any proof the stranger is lying? I mean the stranger SAID he was telling the truth. Therefore, it's on the child to determine that it's untrue, otherwise she should step into the car.
Your reasoning isn't just weird, it's dangerous, in so many ways. It is dangerous and potentially harmful to believe someone's random words with no proof whatsoever. For more than 15 centuries, your reasoning was dangerous in that it literally put people to death for heresy...for not "just believing" the words. Today, it's dangerous because "just believing" since we "can't prove" Paul didn't say X and John didn't say Y leads to invasions of the beliefs (they're not truths...they're beliefs) into schools, into law, into women's uteri, and so on. Just believing with no proof is a big, big problem, besides being intellectually lazy.
Claims such as the ones you're making - the ones the Bible makes - aren't random conversation pieces somebody can just laugh off later as another whopper from Uncle Earl. They can be used, and have been used to control, to harm, to interfere, to stop knowledge and scientific education. Ergo to "believe" them is a weighty thing indeed and there is a responsibility in obtaining proof of them BEFORE ordering one's life, and attempting to order others' lives, around them.
But besides all that, in any argument of a claim it is on the person making the claim to provide proof that the claim is true...not the other way around. To say otherwise is so ludicrous as to almost not be believed. Prove a unicorn NEVER came into my backyard. Prove I can't do secret invisible magic you can't see. Prove Thor never spoke to me and directed me to break up the local church with my hammer. Ridiculous...right?
This is such a simple concept.
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
There's no proof that Peter and John walked with Jesus. There's just a written story.
There's no proof that the people claiming to be Peter and John were telling the truth even if there WAS actually a Peter and a John.
It is on you to prove it if you want us to believe it. It is NOT on us to disprove it and until then, we must believe it, LOL. That is...just such bizarre reasoning.
Should I believe I can "LOSE 30 LBS. IN 30 DAYS with this ONE WEIRD TRICK!" and nod my head and agree, and send the link to all my friends, and go door to door proselytizing about this ONE WEIRD TRICK until I can prove it isn't a true statement? (Which I will never be able to do if a hundred people, whether lying or deluded or whatever, come up and claim it did work for them and therefore, I must be doing something wrong...another rather repeating M.O. among the religious, incidentally...we must be "doing something wrong.")
Should a child believe the stranger in the car who says "Get in quick! Your mom is sick! I'll take you to her!" because she doesn't have any proof the stranger is lying? I mean the stranger SAID he was telling the truth. Therefore, it's on the child to determine that it's untrue, otherwise she should step into the car.
Your reasoning isn't just weird, it's dangerous, in so many ways. It is dangerous and potentially harmful to believe someone's random words with no proof whatsoever. For more than 15 centuries, your reasoning was dangerous in that it literally put people to death for heresy...for not "just believing" the words. Today, it's dangerous because "just believing" since we "can't prove" Paul didn't say X and John didn't say Y leads to invasions of the beliefs (they're not truths...they're beliefs) into schools, into law, into women's uteri, and so on. Just believing with no proof is a big, big problem, besides being intellectually lazy.
Claims such as the ones you're making - the ones the Bible makes - aren't random conversation pieces somebody can just laugh off later as another whopper from Uncle Earl. They can be used, and have been used to control, to harm, to interfere, to stop knowledge and scientific education. Ergo to "believe" them is a weighty thing indeed and there is a responsibility in obtaining proof of them BEFORE ordering one's life, and attempting to order others' lives, around them.
But besides all that, in any argument of a claim it is on the person making the claim to provide proof that the claim is true...not the other way around. To say otherwise is so ludicrous as to almost not be believed. Prove a unicorn NEVER came into my backyard. Prove I can't do secret invisible magic you can't see. Prove Thor never spoke to me and directed me to break up the local church with my hammer. Ridiculous...right?
This is such a simple concept.
Excellent post.
It will ricochet off his fundashield. But there are lurkers/questioners out there who will see the truth that eludes him.
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
You would never read nor even attempt to understand the Bible scholarship that would be needed to convince you. You are impervious to it and your Fundashield would not allow any of the truth to penetrate your indoctrinated mind.
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
Nevertheless, anyone can literally say anything, whether that anything is true or a complete fable. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus. If you want to convince me otherwise, you've got to show proof.
Supposedly.....That is a good truthful word....Do you know what it means?
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
2 Peter 1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ...
Rev. 1
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus...
Prove otherwise.
It's for you (as you are the one pushing the claim as true) to show that ..
1. JtC existed.
2 Peter and John existed.
3. They walked and talked together.
4. The transcription of the conversations was true and accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Nevertheless, the books and letters claim to be written by Peter and John, the same men who supposedly walked with Jesus.
Nice try. I merely pointed out that Peter & John, who walked with Jesus, claimed to be the writers of some of the NT.
Nice try? You asked me (paraphrasing) why I participated in the past few pages. I told you why. Now you imply I guessed wrong?
Peter & John walked with Jesus according to the Bible. We can't use the Bible to substantiate that claim. That is circular logic.
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I merely pointed out that Peter & John, who walked with Jesus, claimed to be the writers of some of the NT.
