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Not a thing wrong with wishing health happiness and prosperity on us all, though it is probably more of a waste of time even than praying for world peace, which can at least stimulate some Intent.
But for me, the basis of not doing things that don't make any rational sense is always the better option and, while doing things for no better reason than Faith (which is no good reason at all) even if it doesn't appear to do any harm, is wrong at bottom, and doing the wrong is wrong even if it doesn't have any harmful effects - or at least none that are apparent.
Well in fairness, everything I do is for my betterment. Read into how you want. I'm honest and own it.
Whether it's helping others, or helping myself, it is solely for me.
But I love when people bring up faith... Projecting past interactions on another. Again, another lol.
Seems like the various authors of the books of the Bible saw God as a dog trainer. You know how dog trainers will force the dogs to do certain tricks even though the trick is entirely unnecessary, just to prove they have complete control over the dog and to make sure the dog will ALWAYS do what they say, even walk on burning coals if that's the master's desire? Yeah, kind of like that.
Luke 11:8 - "I tell you, although he will not get up and supply him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his shameless persistence and insistence, he will get up and give him as much as he needs."
We need to stay befor the Father,prayering for those who are not saved to receive the Bread of Salvation -- like the man in Luke 11:8 did fo rhis friend.
Who do we need to persevere with God in prayer concerning the salvation of others?
It's certainly not because we have to change God's mind. He never changes. His mind is made up. He wants all men saved. The reason we have to persevere in intercession is to put pressure on the demonic forces that are trying to keep God's will from being accomplished. Those forces must be broken down through prayer so that stronholds are destroyed and spiritual blinders are removed from the spiritual eyes of the people we are praying for.
While God will not go against the will of people, He will move through our intercession to reveal himself. Through persistent prayers God will bring them to the knowledge of their need for Him. Then they will reach out for Him and spiritual rebirth can take place!
Last edited by mensaguy; 07-19-2016 at 03:41 PM..
Reason: Quit posting in red
Really? Is he unaware of what the "will of the people" is? Or will be? I thought he was supposed to be omniscient.
I know, weird, right?
God knows everything. EVERYTHING! Well, except what people generally want. And what people like and what they don't, and whether they wish to suffer or not, and what human suffering is. Stuff like that.
But I mean...everything else! Totally everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
So, he won't go against our will, but he'll destroy the planet or consign countless billions of souls to a lake of fire?
LOL, yup. Now you've got it! Once you can illogic "God is only love" with "God totally set up man to suffer so we would have to choose him...or else," you'll really have the whole thing down.
Reconcile all THAT and my brother, you have the makings of a pastor. Preach!
I wish people well and even better, I DO things to help when things go awry. I still just don't see what prayer is "doing" except as an attempt to subtly "fly under God's radar" to have Him be influenced to change something for them, without Him really noticing. Oh whoops! That silly goofy God. He's so easily tricked but I'll bet He has a great attitude about it.
I picture God standing there slapping His robe-covered thigh. "Oh ha, ha! You really slipped that one past me, Jerry. I cured your wife's cancer without you REALLY asking. My gosh but that was subtle, all that "Your will be done" stuff, what like I wasn't going to do My will anyway? Face it Jer, I handed that one to ya...Okay, gotta go, DON'T even try this again, I'll be on the lookout this time!" (God goes away, wiping eyes, laughing and shaking His head, pointing a semi-joking Finger)
By the way, yes, I get that things happen that are out of our control. All the time. That's yet another part of the Problem of Evil, but thank you for bringing it up. That one too has some pat fundie answers, such as: it's man's fault for "making" the world imperfect (even though God did that...but uh...man MADE God do it...even though God knew it would happen...and created people FOR all of it to happen...but...uh...yeah). So yep, that's a different concept but ties into the whole thing, certainly. There are two threads along this line in another forum going on right now, but it goes on in intelligent, thinking people's heads routinely, with the only logical conclusion being: it's pretty much all balderdash, sorry.
Religious people also DO, within their means, to help and support fellow human beings. But they also pray for good to others.
The concept of prayers as I said primarily goes towards things that may not be in our control and the out come of such events may not be good for us.
For other stuff about God that he knows something bad will happen to some people so he purposely created them, so that the bad stuff happens to them. The reciprocal is, God knows that good stuff will happen to some people so he purposely created those people for the good stuff to happen to them.
The question is, what group you want to belong to? Those with who may be in trouble in the end, or those who will be in glad tidings?
The choice is in your hand, you can pray for yourself and for others and try to do whatever good you can - OR you can choose and deny God, outright.
It's all your choice, but then don't cry in the end and scream that "I didn't know. No one told me. I wish I could back and do it all over again".
God is God, he can do WHATEVER he wants and we can't do anything about it. God is not answerable to us or anyone.
So it's an oxymoron practice for humans with their limited knowledge to judge God, and label him cruel and angry and whatnot.
Religious people also DO, within their means, to help and support fellow human beings. But they also pray for good to others.
The concept of prayers as I said primarily goes towards things that may not be in our control and the out come of such events may not be good for us.
For other stuff about God that he knows something bad will happen to some people so he purposely created them, so that the bad stuff happens to them. The reciprocal is, God knows that good stuff will happen to some people so he purposely created those people for the good stuff to happen to them.
The question is, what group you want to belong to? Those with who may be in trouble in the end, or those who will be in glad tidings?
The choice is in your hand, you can pray for yourself and for others and try to do whatever good you can - OR you can choose and deny God, outright.
It's all your choice, but then don't cry in the end and scream that "I didn't know. No one told me. I wish I could back and do it all over again".
God is God, he can do WHATEVER he wants and we can't do anything about it. God is not answerable to us or anyone.
So it's an oxymoron practice for humans with their limited knowledge to judge God, and label him cruel and angry and whatnot.
Likewise, it seems that with the limited knowledge that we possess of God, we really don't know if he is good or evil. Since he can and does whatever he wants, including working all things out for good, it seems that we can't judge the actions of any humans here, even those like Jeffrey Dalmer, Pol Pot, or any number of seemingly evil actors.
It's certainly not because we have to change God's mind. He never changes. His mind is made up. He wants all men saved. The reason we have to persevere in intercession is to put pressure on the demonic forces that are trying to keep God's will from being accomplished. Those forces must be broken down through prayer so that stronholds are destroyed and spiritual blinders are removed from the spiritual eyes of the people we are praying for.
Why would anything occur in this universe, including demonic forces, against the will of god? Did he not create those demonic forces, knowingly?
BTW Albert....you might want to use a different color than red. Red is reserved for mods on these forums.
Not a thing wrong with wishing health happiness and prosperity on us all, though it is probably more of a waste of time even than praying for world peace, which can at least stimulate some Intent.
But for me, the basis of not doing things that don't make any rational sense is always the better option and, while doing things for no better reason than Faith (which is no good reason at all) even if it doesn't appear to do any harm, is wrong at bottom, and doing the wrong is wrong even if it doesn't have any harmful effects - or at least none that are apparent.
This is one of the reasons I believe Atheists technically do not have any hope.
We usually "Hope" for stuff that is not in our full control. And we usually also "pray" for stuff that is usually not in our Control. In most cases, we also DO and put our efforts to achieve the goal but hope and pray comes in when the outcome is not in our full control.
For the most part, "Hope and Pray" go hand in hand.
If Atheists don't believe in prayers then they should technically not have any "hope" either - otherwise, who do you expect to make your hopes come true?
And since they don't have hope, we can easily conclude that Atheists (some of whom are very good human beings) are eventually, hopeless people. Isn't it?
This is one of the reasons I believe Atheists technically do not have any hope.
We usually "Hope" for stuff that is not in our full control. And we usually also "pray" for stuff that is usually not in our Control. In most cases, we also DO and put our efforts to achieve the goal but hope and pray comes in when the outcome is not in our full control.
For the most part, "Hope and Pray" go hand in hand.
If Atheists don't believe in prayers then they should technically not have any "hope" either - otherwise, who do you expect to make your hopes come true?
And since they don't have hope, we can easily conclude that Atheists (some of whom are very good human beings) are eventually, hopeless people. Isn't it?
Depends on what people are hopeful for, I suppose. I feel quite upbeat and hopeful. I don't want much, I don't fear much. I'm about as free as a human in America in this day and age can be.
Last edited by Griffis; 07-19-2016 at 03:14 PM..
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