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Likewise, it seems that with the limited knowledge that we possess of God, we really don't know if he is good or evil. Since he can and does whatever he wants, including working all things out for good, it seems that we can't judge the actions of any humans here, even those like Jeffrey Dalmer, Pol Pot, or any number of seemingly evil actors.
Not sure if it's apples to apples.
Human beings judging fellow human beings VS humans judging God?
If I have to briefly opine myself, this is what I would say.
1 - Human beings Judging fellow human beings.
I guess there are two main kinds of this.
A - Since we are all humans and we have to live together, we have made certain laws as a society. We have designated and qualified human beings in place in our courts who judge those who may have broken those laws.
Our fellow humans are NOT Gods. They are just like us. So the judgement to break our agreed upon laws, makes perfect sense.
B - But yes, a human should not judge the faith of other human being.
2 - Humans judging God.
Perhaps those who follow an evil and cruel path and do the same to others, see God as a cruel and evil entity. And perhaps that's exactly how God will treat them in the end.
And those who do good and are kind and merciful to others, see God as a kind and merciful entity. And perhaps that how God will treat them at end.
For other stuff about God that he knows something bad will happen to some people so he purposely created them, so that the bad stuff happens to them. The reciprocal is, God knows that good stuff will happen to some people so he purposely created those people for the good stuff to happen to them.
The question is, what group you want to belong to? Those with who may be in trouble in the end, or those who will be in glad tidings?
If he has already created me to be one or the other I really don't have a choice, now do I?
OTOH, if he literally is giving me the choice, he DOESN'T KNOW the future. Correct?
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Perhaps those who follow an evil and cruel path and do the same to others, see God as a cruel and evil entity. And perhaps that's exactly how God will treat them in the end.
And maybe silliness like this ^ is just how people make themselves feel better about horrific things happening to their neighbor, but not to them. Either "oh, that person was eventually going to become evil, but God foresaw that so God already treated her that way" or "she doesn't appear evil but she must actually be, or God wouldn't treat her that way."
Maybe that's how some of the "faithful" sleep well in their beds while children starve all over the globe, eh?
Human beings judging fellow human beings VS humans judging God?
If I have to briefly opine myself, this is what I would say.
1 - Human beings Judging fellow human beings.
I guess there are two main kinds of this.
A - Since we are all humans and we have to live together, we have made certain laws as a society. We have designated and qualified human beings in place in our courts who judge those who may have broken those laws.
Our fellow humans are NOT Gods. They are just like us. So the judgement to break our agreed upon laws, makes perfect sense.
B - But yes, a human should not judge the faith of other human being.
2 - Humans judging God.
Perhaps those who follow an evil and cruel path and do the same to others, see God as a cruel and evil entity. And perhaps that's exactly how God will treat them in the end.
And those who do good and are kind and merciful to others, see God as a kind and merciful entity. And perhaps that how God will treat them at end.
If God is omnipotent (knowing all) and omni-benevolent (all things work out for good), why do we need laws at all? By creating laws, aren't we second-guessing God and the belief that all things work out for good by prohibiting these things from happening?
This is one of the reasons I believe Atheists technically do not have any hope.
We usually "Hope" for stuff that is not in our full control. And we usually also "pray" for stuff that is usually not in our Control. In most cases, we also DO and put our efforts to achieve the goal but hope and pray comes in when the outcome is not in our full control.
For the most part, "Hope and Pray" go hand in hand.
If Atheists don't believe in prayers then they should technically not have any "hope" either - otherwise, who do you expect to make your hopes come true?
And since they don't have hope, we can easily conclude that Atheists (some of whom are very good human beings) are eventually, hopeless people. Isn't it?
Only if you believe that you cannot hope for something without praying for it otherwise your idea is pointless. I can hope it rains tomorrow or hope that it is sunny tomorrow without praying to some god to make it so. Does every single thing that you hope for come true?
Instead of saying I hope it rains tomorrow I could say that it would be nice if it rained tomorrow. Would that be more satisfying for you? I can hope that the parcel I am expecting is in the mail tomorrow. Would you pray for that or only hope for that?
I really do not know why theists cannot understand the atheists can have hopes, plans, dreams, love, friends, a future and concerns about others.
If I hope for something it means that is what I would like to happen. I do not expect anyone to make it rain when I want or for the mail to come when I want it to, I just what like it to happen. I do not go around life expecting anyone to do things for me just because I hope for it.
You are not the only theist to think that atheists are hopeless people living a terrible life and some think we cannot possibly be nice unless it is for selfish reasons and some think that we would not even care if our wife or children were raped and murdered (the Duck Dynasty guy for one). If you need a God to make it rain when you want to or have a parcel delivered tomorrow instead of the day after as you want it that day so be it. I do not understand why any God would be concerned with these issues. As far as doing things does it matter if you pray to God and do something or you do not pray and do the same thing?
You can only conclude what you did by making unfounded assumptions.
I really do not know why theists cannot understand the atheists can have hopes, plans, dreams, love, friends, a future and concerns about others.
^ This, this this this. We have a winner.
The ONLY difference between the hopes, plans, dreams and so on of atheists v. the religious is that atheists don't feel and think and accomplish all those things in conjunction with performing rituals that we fool ourselves into believing we're not actually using to try to tip the odds. Oh no no, we're just, uh, casually mentioning it to God...over and over again...just as you know, conversation...Nope, atheists don't do that.
That is the sole difference between religious prayer, and no religious belief and no prayer.
I have plenty of hopes and dreams, loads of plans, plenty of love, and I deliver help whenever I can. I just don't get on my knees to smugly try to bypass the "it should be God's will" factor by creating a sideways prayer that just happens to "remind" (ahem, aHEM, clearing throat, nudge-nudge) God that there's something I'd reeeeeeeeeeeeally like in my life.
Only if He wants, of course...
...and then repeating it the next 50 consecutive nights. Like a child who knows you'll say "no" to a cookie, managing to mention the cookie a hundred times, just in conversation. "Hey Mom, did you know Jimmy got to have a cookie yesterday?"
Of course, there's also the "let me prove to God how selfless I am" brownie-points factor. "I'll say a bunch of prayers that aren't for me at all or even for anybody I know. Dear God, I love our talks, so I thought I'd mention again that I would LOVE to have that new higher-paying job! Just updating you on my life, you understand. By the way, please dear God, bless and keep starving black kids I don't know on another continent because I selflessly hurt so much for them! Amen." (to self) "Now He KNOWS I deserve that new job. I'm selfless."
Who are we trying to fool, here? Well, a few of us are trying to fool their god. That's half-amusing, half-bizarre. I mean I can say all this stuff as baldly as I just did because I simply don't have these beliefs. But if I did, OMG, I sure wouldn't be counting on my god being dumb enough for me to pull one over on Him. I'd be afraid of the lightning bolt for that one. If I'm wrong and there is a God, I wonder if He gets mad, or just laughs at this sort of thing. Or just shakes His head.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
Not sure if it's apples to apples.
Human beings judging fellow human beings VS humans judging God?
If I have to briefly opine myself, this is what I would say.
1 - Human beings Judging fellow human beings.
I guess there are two main kinds of this.
A - Since we are all humans and we have to live together, we have made certain laws as a society. We have designated and qualified human beings in place in our courts who judge those who may have broken those laws.
Our fellow humans are NOT Gods. They are just like us. So the judgement to break our agreed upon laws, makes perfect sense.
B - But yes, a human should not judge the faith of other human being.
2 - Humans judging God. Perhaps those who follow an evil and cruel path and do the same to others, see God as a cruel and evil entity. And perhaps that's exactly how God will treat them in the end.
And those who do good and are kind and merciful to others, see God as a kind and merciful entity. And perhaps that how God will treat them at end.
How DARE you suggest those that see religion causing pain, suffering and harm over the eons suggest those who are not believing of a god, never mind a 'benevolent' god, follow an evil and cruel path. History, recent and distance, has shown time and time again the horror committed in its name.
How DARE you think atheists are evil and cruel! How DARE you?
Either "oh, that person was eventually going to become evil, but God foresaw that so God already treated her that way" or "she doesn't appear evil but she must actually be, or God wouldn't treat her that way."
Maybe that's how some of the "faithful" sleep well in their beds while children starve all over the globe, eh?
In fairness, no one, theist or otherwise, can take on the suffering of the whole world as their personal responsibility. Most of us in the West sleep fine at night, despite being well aware of things like the war in Syria or even lesser suffering (so far) like Erdogan's opportunistic power grabbing in Turkey after the failed coup.
There's even a psychological explanation for it. I don't recall the terminology for it, but people can't get their minds around large scale suffering so it's far easier to filter out something like the Syrian debacle or the latest African genocide campaign than it is to put aside one relatable human interest story. There's a reason those charities want you to sponsor one child for X$ a month and give you updates on how they are doing.
That said, your basic point is correct. As a former evangelical I can testify to the circular reasoning you describe. If you are jumping through personal hoops to be "righteous" in god's eyes in the belief that god rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked, you HAVE to believe that other's misfortunes are somehow deserved. Otherwise, all your self-denial, loyalty, faith and worship is for naught! That's the real core mechanism at work here.
if someone is going to pray for others, then pray for things that benefit everyone such as world peace, health, kindness, harmony, stable food supply, honest livelihood, dignity for all humankind.
Why? It hasn't ever worked. What makes you think it is going to work now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Yet, we are commanded to do so.
You are commanded to sell your possessions and give the money to the poor too...but you tend to ignore that one don't you.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
Right.
Which makes it all the freakin' weirder, TBH.
Seems like the various authors of the books of the Bible saw God as a dog trainer. You know how dog trainers will force the dogs to do certain tricks even though the trick is entirely unnecessary, just to prove they have complete control over the dog and to make sure the dog will ALWAYS do what they say, even walk on burning coals if that's the master's desire? Yeah, kind of like that.
Odd isn't it. They shout...'God doesn't want puppets'... and then go on to glory in being 'commanded' to do things.
In fairness, no one, theist or otherwise, can take on the suffering of the whole world as their personal responsibility. Most of us in the West sleep fine at night, despite being well aware of things like the war in Syria or even lesser suffering (so far) like Erdogan's opportunistic power grabbing in Turkey after the failed coup.
I agree with this and what I was actually saying was that in a belief system with this particular type of reward/punishment, there has to be (as you go on to say) some finger-pointing that the person deserved what s/he got in order for the believer to rest easy, considering the fact that s/he isn't "getting" the same thing, in order for the person to rectify not only logic but guilt. And also (again as you state) to be able to continue with the belief system. Ceasing to believe is way too painful; the belief system must be upheld no matter what. Otherwise, it's all been a deck of cards.
Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying non-"believers" don't also justify away the pain of thinking about those who are truly suffering. However, in this latter case at least some of us are not doing so by literally accusing the sufferers of having earned their pain.
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