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I believe that when you HOPE for something, you want "something or someone" to intervene as the outcome is not in your control.
while you seem to think that you could hope for something but then you don't know what or who will make your hope come true? If the answer is "no one", then why don't you do it yourself instead of hoping for it? Make rain tomorrow instead of hoping it, for example.
But anyway, I don't have an issue if you think that 'hope' is a mere game of chance, just like everything else in the universe is.
and no, I don't think that all atheists live a terrible life.
You really need to learn about non theist worldview . Not every thing in my life is a mere game of chance. My car starts everyday so I expect it to start when I turn the key. I also expect that after so many kilometers driven I need to fill the tank. Children are a mix of genes from both parents and if my cat is pregnant she will have kittens not puppies,
If I hope for rain tomorrow it simply means that I would like it to rain tomorrow without wanting or expecting anyone or any god to do so for me. Do you expect your god to make it rain tomorrow if you would like it too?
I hope to have a long and healthy life. There are things I can do about it, eat healthy, exercise, defensive driving, and things I may not be able to such as unexpected stroke or heart attack, an accident, being hit by lightning or attacked by a bear, or exposure to a virus. I do not look to anyone making sure that I have a long and healthy life but that is what I hope for, it is what I w would like to happen. There is some chance to it and in this case somethings I can do about it. Just because I do not believe in a god and do not have total control over it does not mean I cannot want it or hope for it. With rain tomorrow there is nothing I can do about it. Why should I not still be able to want it or hope for it? Do you only hope for things that you can conto or have others do for you? Do you never hope for something nice to happen without turning to your god to step in and do it for you?
Random and chance are a little more complicated then your mere game of chance. Not everything in the universe is a mere game of chance, I just do not need everything to be done by a greater power deciding who gets their wishes fircrain, who needs rain but doesn't get it, whose lives are destroyed by too much rain.
. My car starts everyday so I expect it to start when I turn the key.
why do you turn the key?
Why don't you just hope for the car to start and it starts?
Why should it rain just because you "hope" it rains? Just like some action by somebody or something is REQUIRED for the car to start, somebody or something has to do something for rain to happen, and since that somebody or something is NOT yourself, you end up hoping for that someone or somebody to make it happen for you.
If a car cannot start without your action then how could the earth revolves around the sun in a particular order for millions of years?
Comes back to my same point - just like the process of running a car requires somebody or something behind it, EVERY PROCESS requires something or someone behind it. No process can start on it's own. The process of starting and running a car cannot start on it's own, the process of earth revolving around the sun cannot start on it's own. The process of rain cannot start on it's own.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 07-20-2016 at 09:48 PM..
why do you turn the key?
Why don't you just hope for the car to start and it starts?
Why should it rain just because you "hope" it rains? Just like some action by somebody or something is REQUIRED for the car to start, somebody or something has to do something for rain to happen, and since that somebody or something is NOT yourself, you end up hoping for that someone or somebody to make it happen for you.
If a car cannot start without your action then how could the earth revolves around the sun in a particular order for millions of years?
Comes back to my same point - just like the process of running a car requires somebody or something behind it, EVERY PROCESS requires something or someone behind it. No process can start on it's own. The process of starting and running a car cannot start on it's own, the process of earth revolving around the sun cannot start on it's own. The process of rain cannot start on it's own.
Sorry but I get from you that if I don't believe in a god then I cannot be logical or be able to understand anything. If I hope for rain tomorrow, I have no expectations for rain nor do I expect anyone to make it rain. It's just that I would like it to rain tomorrow. I fail to see how that can be a difficult concept to grasp. Maybe I am unable to explain myself so if anyone would like to jump in and explain it for me please be my guest.
I would be stupid to expect my car to start by just wishing it to start. I get the impression that if I turn the key and the car starts I should belief in a creator of the universe. I had a car that didn't start everyone so was your god mad at me or was that proof that there is no god? If you think the Earth needs to be guided around the Sun rather than just following the laws of physics there can be no further discussion,
And some cold winter mornings when I did not plug the car in, I do hope it starts. If it starts or not is a function of the strength of the battery or just how cold it got not my wishes or your god. Unless your god wants me to get a boast or plug the car in for a couple of hours so that it starts. I cannot conceive of a god that would care if my car started or not .
Again if I hope for rain it is simply a hope, that I would like it to rain with no expectations of rain or thoughts that someone can make it rain. Simply I would prefer rain over no rain. How us that difficult to undertand? And if I did believe in a god and hoped for rain I still would not be praying or asking for rain. I would save my prayers for something actually important, perhaps rain in a drought area or someone s health to get better.
That you think that a process in nature needs a someone to start it dead ends the discussion as you cannot comprehend that this is not so. This is simply an assertion and assumption on your part.
Does not look like rain tomorrow and we are just repeating ourselves. Take care.
No, it doesn't work that way. There is another dimension to it. (And remember, this is not God, Son and Holy spirit faith - This is Islamic faith and ideology, and I am stating how I understand it)
Lets take myself as an example.
Say God created me and he has the knowledge of future, which is, I will make choices (when given) that will land me into trouble in the end. correct? <~~ Remember this line as we will come back to it.
Stop there. You don't need to go any further. All you need to do now is ask the question... 'Why would Yahweh deliberately create me when he knows that I am going to cause suffering to myself and/or others?' In other words... Why did Yahweh create Hitler when he knew that he would be responsible for the death and suffering of millions?
The other problem is: If Yahweh knows before he creates you that you are going to cause suffering to yourself and/or others, what can you possibly do in your life to NOT cause suffering to yourself and/or others...because if you do stop yourself from causing suffering to yourself and others, then you have effectively proven your god's knowledge that you WILL do bad things ...to be wrong haven't you?
Thus we have the problem with the free will argument. If you have free-will and Yahweh knows before you are even born that you are going to be the next Hitler, can you do anything, via your free-will, to NOT make you the next Hitler. In a nutshell...can you do ANYTHING in your life via your 'free-will', to change Yahweh's pre-ordination of your life?
Example: It is 2016. Mary and John are about to be born. Yahweh knows that in 2036 Mary will be murdered by John. What can John do via his free-will choices to stop himself murdering Mary? If John makes a free will decision not to murder Mary then Yahweh's knowledge that John will murder Mary...is wrong....and that can't be can it?
Do you believe that your god pre-ordained your life before you were born? If your life is pre-ordained, where is your free-will to change it?
Stop there. You don't need to go any further. All you need to do now is ask the question... 'Why would Yahweh deliberately create me when he knows that I am going to cause suffering to myself and/or others?' In other words... Why did Yahweh create Hitler when he knew that he would be responsible for the death and suffering of millions?
The other problem is: If Yahweh knows before he creates you that you are going to cause suffering to yourself and/or others, what can you possibly do in your life to NOT cause suffering to yourself and/or others...because if you do stop yourself from causing suffering to yourself and others, then you have effectively proven your god's knowledge that you WILL do bad things ...to be wrong haven't you?
Thus we have the problem with the free will argument. If you have free-will and Yahweh knows before you are even born that you are going to be the next Hitler, can you do anything, via your free-will, to NOT make you the next Hitler. In a nutshell...can you do ANYTHING in your life via your 'free-will', to change Yahweh's pre-ordination of your life?
Example: It is 2016. Mary and John are about to be born. Yahweh knows that in 2036 Mary will be murdered by John. What can John do via his free-will choices to stop himself murdering Mary? If John makes a free will decision not to murder Mary then Yahweh's knowledge that John will murder Mary...is wrong....and that can't be can it?
Do you believe that your god pre-ordained your life before you were born? If your life is pre-ordained, where is your free-will to change it?
I wonder, why is it that Christians seem to think that if you don't believe in their Savior, you're not saved and just what exactly is being saved mean? I feel no reason for me as an individual and a nonbeliever in your Christian religion to have to feel that I have to be saved from anything other than your Christianity. Now that's just my opinion and I'm sure I'm not alone in that thought.
But some good discussions and we don't even have to think about him. ☺
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