Praying For Those Who Are Not Saved (soul, education, Universe)
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.... actually, we don't ask to be born. We don't have a choice. Then once we're born, we have no choice but to ultimately face death. In the meantime we have no choice but to suffer (with blips along the way for the things we can control, which will only be a percentage of our sufferings).
yes, you did choose to be born.
and yes you have a choice in your lifetime at every moment to choose how you respond to every situation and circumstance you face
I contend that the idea of free will is utterly incompatible with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent AND benevolent god.
You have a right to do so, and I don't have an issue with it.
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Let's take Yahweh, just as an example.
Did Yahweh not KNOW that Adam and Eve would succumb to temptation in the Garden, covering all subsequent humankind in sin (because they dared to try to gain some knowledge of good and evil?)
Yes, God had all of this knowledge. Should God have created humans and tossed them all straight in hell? If yes, what would we have all asked? "Oh God, what did we do to deserve this punishment ???"
Why should God punish or reward you for nothing? This makes God just. If he sends someone to hell, there will be reason behind it. And that reason, most likely, will be our actions based on free will in this short life.
Think about it, what if God had created you, and then tossed you straight into hell. What would you have asked? "Oh God, what did I do to get this??"
I guess same goes with paradise.
Why don't you ask your employer to reward you with a nice bi-weekly check without you doing anything for the company, and just stay home all the time and watch TV?
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Did Yahweh not KNOW that the world would once again grow corrupt and wicked, so that he'd feel compelled to destroy nearly everything and everyone in a flood?
Again, God knew it all. And God does whatever he wants. He is not answerable to you or me or anyone. And this is one of the reasons that makes him God.
God created everything and he is the owner of everything. He can do whatever he wants with the planet earth, all humanity and all universe. And he is not answerable to anyone.
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Was he surprised at the actions of Adam and Eve? If not, I'd argue that he's far from omniscient. If so, I'd argue he's far from benevolent.
Honestly, I don't know the exact answer. But then again, God getting surprised is not the focus. The focus is, if someone get's into trouble, it's most likely his own actions based on free will, and not God's knowledge of future. Whether it was Adam or you or I, we are responsible for our actions.
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The Bible indicates that God knows all--each of us--before we are even born, down to every hair on each of our heads, and every breath we will take, every beat of our hearts.
If this is true, he would then KNOW which of us would come to him, or reject him, resulting in eternal torment, correct?
I am not a bible follower so I don't know. If you have any question from Quran, you are more than welcome to bring it up and I will try to answer to the best my abilities in a friendly environment.
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You seem to have little difficulty understanding or explaining, or excusing many things about God:
I have absolutely no problem in confessing to that. My knowledge in front of God's knowledge is absolutely nothing. I can't even create a functioning wing of a house fly or a mosquito.
If I knew it ALL, then perhaps I was a God too. no?
Perhaps you know it ALL?
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So, I think of my questions as simple, direct and honest ones. I would sincerely like to hear your responses.
I followed your statement and honestly read and answered the questions as above.
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To my mind, what you propose makes it sound as if God was bored and just wanted some puppets to toy with.
Why did God create the entire universe and everything in it? I don't know; however, what I do know is, "since we are here, lets deal with it."
It's like, you suddenly wake up and find yourself standing on a jumping board. You see two pools under you. There is a pool of fire, and there is a pool of water.
You are told that if you make the choice to jump into the pool of fire, you might hurt yourself. And if you make a choice to jump into the water, you should be OK.
To jump into which pool, is YOUR choice.
God has got us locked into this. Why? I wish I knew, but I don't. So I stick with the same, "since I am here, lets deal with it"
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If this is actually the case, I have no interest in worshiping such a being, and further contend that life under such circumstances has no more meaning or purpose than life without belief in a god or gods. Less so, in fact.
You just made choice here ^^^ based on free will, yet you deny free will. Ironic, isn't it?
yes, you did choose to be born.
and yes you have a choice in your lifetime at every moment to choose how you respond to every situation and circumstance you face
No. I did not choose to be born.
My parents chose to have sex. I was created in this way and now I must live and experience both good and bad and ultimately face death, none though my choice, but oh well, there's no way out now.
I can choose how I respond, sure. When did I say I couldn't choose how to respond? We all have that choice. If you're intimating that the two-year-old being raped to death by his stepfather has the choice to scream or not, or that the woman with cancer has the choice to cry or not cry, well, sure. People choose how to respond to good things, and bad things. I'm not getting your point? Of course people can choose how they respond to various things, that's nothing to do with religion or God.
I do not necessarily have the choice to not have things done to me, which makes "free will" entirely bogus and an illogical error from the get-go, not to mention further problems with it, some of which I'm mentioned, but I'm not sure whether that's what you mean here.
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You just made choice here ^^^ based on free will, yet you deny free will. Ironic, isn't it?
No, why would that be ironic? He made this one choice, for the next thing he might not have a choice, "free will" does not hold consistently no matter how you slice it.
I try not to focus on fundamentalist ideas about God in the religion and spirituality forum. There's the sub-forums for that. It's nice to come to this forum and be able to discuss other ways of thinking about things for a change, although it's not always easy to get people to let me do that!
I didn't think there was a fundamentalist sub-forum.
Fundies come here so although I don't "focus" on them either in any targeted way, they're bound to be around in any given thread - here, not on a sub-forum.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this interpretation.
If He IS psychic why doesn't he at least warn people, then?
Given that: still not benevolent. If I see someone walking toward a cliff, even if I can't get there in time/stop the person I can tell you I'll be shrieking my head off for him to stop so he doesn't wind up hurt.
And before we go the "God does tell you...if you lean close and listen reeeeeeeeeeeally carefully and have received His grace somehow or other...except he tells you in the whisper of the wind or the beauty of a baby's smile" route, because again: I see a dude walking toward a cliff? I'm not whispering, hinting, holding out a picture of a baby's smile and waiting for him to lean in reeeeeeeeeeeeally close, I am SCREAMING MY FREAKIN' HEAD OFF, "You're going to fall off a cliff!"
No, it doesn't work that way.
God sent his messengers to all nations in the human history. The main purpose of these prophets were to extend God's message of monotheism, glad tidings and rewards for good deeds, and warning for possible consequences if we purposely did evil things.
You don't have to get reeeeeeeeeelly close. You should use your own intelligence to figure out that you ignored the warning signs and kept on walking towards the cliff.
It's OUR RESPONSIBILITY to read the warning signs - no need to get reeeeeeeeeeally close.
If one wanted to see the warnings, there were more than plenty out here. As they say, where there is a will, there is a way.
Perhaps, I would have agreed with you if God had created us, and tossed all of us straight into hell.
Why should God punish or reward you for nothing? This makes God just. If he sends someone to hell, there will be reason behind it. And that reason, most likely, will be our actions based on free will in this short life.
I think you missed, or misunderstood the crux of my question, which was:
Does God not KNOW what our decisions will be? How we will choose to use our "free will?" Does he not know, beforehand, who will be "saved" and who will be punished?
If so, I'd argue that is pre-ordination. Divine pre-ordination, which, of course, would mean, God, already knowing the ultimate fate of my soul, allows me to be punished anyway. Also, it would mean that there is nothing I can do to change what God already knew (i e. the ultimate fate of my soul.)
If THAT is the case, surely not benevolent. If it's not the case, surely not omniscient.
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Again, God knew it all. And God does whatever he wants. He is not answerable to you or me or anyone. And this is one of the reasons that makes him God.
God created everything and he is the owner of everything. He can do whatever he wants with the planet earth, all humanity and all universe. And he is not answerable to anyone.
Oh, I see. Then I turn my back to the idea him. "Eat my shorts" etc., etc.
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Honestly, I don't know the exact answer. But then again, God getting surprised is not the focus. The focus is, if someone get's into trouble, it's most likely his own actions based on free will, and not God's knowledge of future. Whether it was Adam or you or I, we are responsible for our actions.
Do you realize this essentially negates everything you previously said? That God knows--before we are even born--what will become of our individual souls, what decisions we will make, how we will behave, and so on, yet still--it is our fault and we are responsible. this is what I meant by puppets. It actually comes off sounding quite sadistic.
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Perhaps you know it ALL?
Trust me, I am quite aware of the fact that I know next to nothing, Which is one reason I ask questions.
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I followed your statement and honestly read and answered the questions as above.
I may not agree with you, and may not see the "reason" in what you say, but I sincerely find it interesting and very much appreciate you taking the time to reply. I honestly do. Salaam.
I didn't think there was a fundamentalist sub-forum.
Fundies come here so although I don't "focus" on them either in any targeted way, they're bound to be around in any given thread - here, not on a sub-forum.
No, sorry, that's not what I meant. I guess the heat is making my mind a little sluggish.
When I want to discuss the more fundamentalist ideas about a religion (for me, that's specifically Christianity since that's what I came out of), I go to the Christian sub-forum. I spend a lot of time there, wrestling with the fundamentalists. When I want a break, to read or to talk about religion/spirituality in a way that's less encumbered, I come here. I know, a lot of fundamentalists come here, too. But that's not what I'm looking for when I'm in here, for the most part.
No, why would that be ironic? He made this one choice, for the next thing he might not have a choice, "free will" does not hold consistently no matter how you slice it.
Definitely yes, And that's what I said too.
There surely are things where we don't have a choice,, like accidents, sickness, the time of our birth and death etc but in a huge portion of day to day lives, we get the choice based on free will.
You are walking down the street and you see a man drops his wallet full of cash, and he is not aware of it.
you have a choice to pick the wallet and put in your pocket by saying, "it was God's will" - Or - you have the choice to pick the wallet and hand it over to the owner.
And this is the mindset of a believer. He does not find himself bound by the destiny as he is not aware it.
He finds himself bound by his actions and choices based on free will under the guidance of God.
A believer knows that he will be worry free of his destiny if he tries his best to live a morally righteous and peaceful life in the light of God's guidance.
As in the end we will be responsible for the choices we made based on freewill.
You are walking down the street and you see a man drops his wallet full of cash, and he is not aware of it.
you have a choice to pick the wallet and put in your pocket by saying, "it was God's will" - Or - you have the choice to pick the wallet and hand it over to the owner.
My response is typically to take 20% of whatever cash is in the wallet as a "finder's fee" and THEN give it back to the owner.
My response is typically to take 20% of whatever cash is in the wallet as a "finder's fee" and THEN give it back to the owner.
Sorry.
I know I'm not as funny as I think I am.
LOL!!!
Then I regret to inform you that only 80% of you is saved.
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