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Is it further possible that God may have had a very good idea (I'm thinking of the "middle knowledge" thing) that our path would inevitably include a hell of a lot of suffering for many (most/all?), but also know that the driving force of it's "benevolence" would eventually lead us toward a favorable and desirable end product for all? Would you consider that benevolent -- or would the intervening suffering be unacceptable, in your mind. In other words, would it have been kinder for us to have never existed?
Yes, I would think it kinder NOT to bring into being something that would suffer immeasurably, just as I feel it would be kinder for a person who doesn't want a child and knows she would be a neglectful and only periodically capable parent no matter how hard she tried (given adoption not being an option for whatever reason) to have an abortion.
I can't see that it's responsible for an inadequate being to bring, on its own whim, into existence creatures that will suffer terribly without it (the inadequate being) able to do anything about that. That seems more like the creepy kid that likes to keep insects in a jar and then one morning, whoops, the bug is dead but that's okay, there's always another bug to catch and anyway, bugs are inferior and kinda/maybe can't feel anything for all the kid knows (because the kid has never BEEN a bug and will never be, and will always be the thing in a position of power, even in the absence of actual malicious intent). The kid continues to be curious and continues to be lonely so he just keeps putting the bugs into the jar and "whoopsing." He isn't necessarily malicious but he IS inadequate AND insensitive to the plight of the creatures he's sentencing to neglect and death. There is a difference - the child didn't CREATE the bug - but the analogy overall is how I would think of this, yes.
Now if the kid put the bug in the jar knowing it would slowly starve to death, and deliberately did so because he, the kid, decreed that "ultimate good" would somehow come out of it? THAT would be deliberately malicious, pretty horrifying, really. Why not keep the bug in the jar and take care of it (see below) and keep it from harm, let it live happily and then the ultimate good would come?
Now. If the kid put the bug in the jar, made SURE to TAKE CARE OF the bug, kept it out of the brutal sunlight of summer stuck in the jar, fed and watered it adequately and was entirely responsible for the bug knowing he (the kid) was in ultimate control and therefore ultimately had responsibility, that would be benevolent.
ETA: The argument might be "but God doesn't imprison people, that's the whole point," but actually, we don't ask to be born. We don't have a choice. Then once we're born, we have no choice but to ultimately face death. In the meantime we have no choice but to suffer (with blips along the way for the things we can control, which will only be a percentage of our sufferings). So we ARE imprisoned, from moment one. We are definitely in that jar. If God PUT us into that jar (put us into being) then he is the kid in the scenario. He either lets the chips fall where they may and lets the bug suffer and then receive "happiness" after death, or He takes care of the bug, knowing he is responsible for it, and then the bug receives "happiness". Which to you is more benevolent? Which appears more evil?
Yes, I would think it kinder NOT to bring into being something that would suffer immeasurably, just as I feel it would be kinder for a person who doesn't want a child and knows she would be a neglectful and only periodically capable parent no matter how hard she tried (given adoption not being an option for whatever reason) to have an abortion.
I can't see that it's responsible for an inadequate being to bring, on its own whim, into existence creatures that will suffer terribly without it (the inadequate being) able to do anything about that. That seems more like the creepy kid that likes to keep insects in a jar and then one morning, whoops, the bug is dead but that's okay, there's always another bug to catch and anyway, bugs are inferior and kinda/maybe can't feel anything for all the kid knows (because the kid has never BEEN a bug and will never be, and will always be the thing in a position of power, even in the absence of actual malicious intent). The kid continues to be curious and continues to be lonely so he just keeps putting the bugs into the jar and "whoopsing." He isn't necessarily malicious but he IS inadequate AND insensitive to the plight of the creatures he's sentencing to neglect and death. There is a difference - the child didn't CREATE the bug - but the analogy overall is how I would think of this, yes.
Now if the kid put the bug in the jar knowing it would slowly starve to death, and deliberately did so because he, the kid, decreed that "ultimate good" would somehow come out of it? THAT would be deliberately malicious, pretty horrifying, really. Why not keep the bug in the jar and take care of it (see below) and keep it from harm, let it live happily and then the ultimate good would come?
Now. If the kid put the bug in the jar, made SURE to TAKE CARE OF the bug, kept it out of the brutal sunlight of summer stuck in the jar, fed and watered it adequately and was entirely responsible for the bug knowing he (the kid) was in ultimate control and therefore ultimately had responsibility, that would be benevolent.
ETA: The argument might be "but God doesn't imprison people, that's the whole point," but actually, we don't ask to be born. We don't have a choice. Then once we're born, we have no choice but to ultimately face death. In the meantime we have no choice but to suffer (with blips along the way for the things we can control, which will only be a percentage of our sufferings). So we ARE imprisoned, from moment one. We are definitely in that jar. If God PUT us into that jar (put us into being) then he is the kid in the scenario. He either lets the chips fall where they may and lets the bug suffer and then receive "happiness" after death, or He takes care of the bug, knowing he is responsible for it, and then the bug receives "happiness". Which to you is more benevolent? Which appears more evil?
Since we are talking about a god who is not omnipotent, then the second option isn't available to said god. But that doesn't mean that god has abandoned people. If benevo-god is available to us within our jar (in our consciousness), that is not neglect, I don't think. Also, I didn't say anything about people dying and then "receiving happiness". You're adding that into my script here.
Do you think that everyone who suffers a great deal wishes they had never existed? Probably some do, (and I'm not a Mary Sunshine type, so I'd probably fall into that category) but I'm actually lobbing this over to something Mystic said in his post ... there is an aspect of our suffering that is about our perception. Two people living through the same difficult situation do not always have the same perception of it.
So, you say that a if a god brought us into existence knowing the suffering we would endure, it was wrong or evil or selfish. I don't know. I'm usually grateful for my opportunity to experience this life. But then, my experience hasn't dished up to me the worst of the worst, so maybe I'm just selfish to be grateful. That's entirely possible.
Understanding that everything we individually experience is entirely interpreted in our mind, it is possible (not necessarily probable) that we are each experiencing a unique reality. The concept of suffering is a self-reflective interpretation of pain entirely dependent on conscious awareness. A bird can die frozen to a wire without ever having felt sorry for itself. The appearance of consensus may be just that, an interpreted appearance. In fact, this reality could be a dream (or nightmare) existence having no real substance at all. It could be entirely spiritual (cognitive) in God's imagination created as a crucible to form our embryonic spiritual characters, solipsism notwithstanding. Just saying.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Sure. I know it's all conjecture on my part. Working my way through the thoughts in my own mind, sucking unwary people in as I go along.
...and you actually do think that is a good enough reason for doing so??
I don't think this. I don't have the knowledge to fully understand God's wisdom. And I don't have enough Authority to treat God as a fellow human and question some of the things. God does what God does - and he is not a subject to your or my judgement.
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Man not knowing his destiny is totally irrelevant. The question was... if man has free-will and Yahweh has pre-determined his future how does the man make a free-will decision that will change what Yahweh has planned for him. Address that question. How does John avoid murdering Mary if Yahweh has predestined John to murder Mary?
Yahweh has not, has not, has NOT, predetermined a man's future. Yahweh knows what a man will do with his own free will.
Yes, there are indeed things that are pre-determined and we can't do much about it, but for the most part in our lives, we do have the choice to go right or left.
If God had pre-determined everyone's destiny then he would have made everyone a believer with no choice of doing good or bad.
And God actually made such species, they are called "Angels". They don't have a choice. They simply obey.
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There is no need to read my own post again. I am aware of what I am asking you.
Perhaps you are not making it clear enough or perhaps I lack the perception to understand it, or perhaps it's both but there is certainly a disconnect.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
It's certainly easy to understand if you are willing to ignore reason and logic.
This is another point - 'reason and logic' may vary from person to person.
Some people love old classic cars and their 'reasons and logic' may not be in accord with yours.
I think there are two basic ways to look at it.
There are those who feel an emptiness within themselves and they know that this emptiness can be filled only with God.
In this case, a person knows there is a God out there, so they begin with affirmative mindset about God's existence.
And they start looking for the signs of God. They use their own 'reason and logic' to do their own research to finally reach a faith that talks to them.
And then there are those who start with the belief that there is no God since there is no evidence. They claim that they will believe in God only if an evidence is provided, otherwise God does not exist.
So this group starts with the denial of God's existence.
In most cases, this group does not know exactly what kind of proof will convince them. Probably, no matter what proof you bring to them, they will find a way to dismiss it. And it's because they started with denying God.
In general, I think if God comes down to earth and meets such people, they still won't believe it. Which is totally OK with me. It's a free choice.
I have a feeling that you belong to the second group so I don't have any disagreement with you. I was only having an exchange of information as to what and how I make my believe.
What do you believe is your choice. And in the end, we will be responsible for our choices.
The video takes about 'Allah' predetermining the guys life
Stop right here, and correct yourself.
God does NOT pre-determined guy's life. God simply knows what the guy will do with his own choice. Didn't you read the example he gave with the experience he had?
Since we are talking about a god who is not omnipotent, then the second option isn't available to said god. But that doesn't mean that god has abandoned people. If benevo-god is available to us within our jar (in our consciousness), that is not neglect, I don't think. Also, I didn't say anything about people dying and then "receiving happiness". You're adding that into my script here.
Do you think that everyone who suffers a great deal wishes they had never existed? Probably some do, (and I'm not a Mary Sunshine type, so I'd probably fall into that category) but I'm actually lobbing this over to something Mystic said in his post ... there is an aspect of our suffering that is about our perception. Two people living through the same difficult situation do not always have the same perception of it.
So, you say that a if a god brought us into existence knowing the suffering we would endure, it was wrong or evil or selfish. I don't know. I'm usually grateful for my opportunity to experience this life. But then, my experience hasn't dished up to me the worst of the worst, so maybe I'm just selfish to be grateful. That's entirely possible.
Yes, everyone feels differently about this subject.
Again, it's only hypothetical, for my part, since I don't actually believe any of it. I am often happy that I'm here but not grateful. I'm part of a great sea of people who are continuing the human species toward whatever end just as any creature born is part of its own species continuing forward until, I suppose, extinction and the journey can be interesting but I don't feel gratitude, per se. My parents had sex, here I am.
Stop right here, and correct yourself.
God does NOT pre-determined guy's life. God simply knows what the guy will do with his own choice. Didn't you read the example he gave with the experience he had?
So God is non-powerful...but psychic?
I'm not sure I'm understanding this interpretation.
If He IS psychic why doesn't he at least warn people, then?
Given that: still not benevolent. If I see someone walking toward a cliff, even if I can't get there in time/stop the person I can tell you I'll be shrieking my head off for him to stop so he doesn't wind up hurt.
And before we go the "God does tell you...if you lean close and listen reeeeeeeeeeeally carefully and have received His grace somehow or other...except he tells you in the whisper of the wind or the beauty of a baby's smile" route, because again: I see a dude walking toward a cliff? I'm not whispering, hinting, holding out a picture of a baby's smile and waiting for him to lean in reeeeeeeeeeeeally close, I am SCREAMING MY FREAKIN' HEAD OFF, "You're going to fall off a cliff!"
Yes, everyone feels differently about this subject.
Again, it's only hypothetical, for my part, since I don't actually believe any of it. I am often happy that I'm here but not grateful. I'm part of a great sea of people who are continuing the human species toward whatever end just as any creature born is part of its own species continuing forward until, I suppose, extinction and the journey can be interesting but I don't feel gratitude, per se. My parents had sex, here I am.
I hear ya. It just seems some people make try to make this topic out to be a deal breaker for the idea of a benevolent god existing, and while I understand the angst behind it, I don't think it's the slam dunk some make it out to be.
I hear ya. It just seems some people make try to make this topic out to be a deal breaker for the idea of a benevolent god existing, and while I understand the angst behind it, I don't think it's the slam dunk some make it out to be.
Well, it's a slam-dunk when in conjunction with the other "omni" qualities, yes, which generally Biblegod believers believe in. All together they're really not reconcilable.
But get a fundie to say "You know, maybe you're right - God is benevolent, but He isn't all-powerful" and I'll give ya a million dollars! Or at least you'll win the internets. As for me...I'm not holding my breath.
Well, it's a slam-dunk when in conjunction with the other "omni" qualities, yes, which generally Biblegod believers believe in. All together they're really not reconcilable.
But get a fundie to say "You know, maybe you're right - God is benevolent, but He isn't all-powerful" and I'll give ya a million dollars! Or at least you'll win the internets. As for me...I'm not holding my breath.
I try not to focus on fundamentalist ideas about God in the religion and spirituality forum. There's the sub-forums for that. It's nice to come to this forum and be able to discuss other ways of thinking about things for a change, although it's not always easy to get people to let me do that!
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