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You missed the word "experiences" which include oral histories and syncretistic adaptations of even more ancient oral histories - ab initio.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
I'm sorry, I'm not following. If just hearing a story is an experience then Cinderella is an experience of mine - that fact doesn't give the Cinderella story validity.
But it DOES chronicle experiences you can relate to and develop opinions about their worth, etc. that are real. They can serve to guide your cognitive development of moral and decent behavior and attitudes, etc. Everything in the spiritual fossil record concerns the development of human cognitions about God, our purpose, good and bad behavior, etc. It informs and forms our spirituality (state of mind).
This could be true, this could be wrong - who knows? but that doesn't bother me. My philosophy remains the same. Since we are here, lets deal with it.
Let's deal with the part of a post I made to you that you have avoided.
Let me help you by summarising:
I asked you to explain how, as Yahweh pre-determines someone's life, how can they make a free-will choice that will change what Yahweh has planned for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius ... if man has free-will and Yahweh has pre-determined his future how does the man make a free-will decision that will change what Yahweh has planned for him.
You said that God absolutely does not pre-determine someone's life.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals Yahweh has not, has not, has NOT, predetermined a man's future.
I said that the Bible disagrees with you and gave you Bible verses that specifically say that God DOES pre-determine our lives.
Quote:
Eph 1:4-5,11
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it
Romans 11:20
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Pro 16:9
A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.
Jer 10:23
Yahweh, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all my days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began. [Psalm 139:16]
Your answer to this was that you do not follow the Bible so couldn't help me regarding what is written in it.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals Sorry, I don't follow bible so I can't answer your questions ...
Later, on another matter, you stated that you believe what God has told you in his book.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals Obviously, I believe in what God has told me in his book, and I have faith that this is the true message.
I am asking what book you are referring to. Are you referring to the Bible...that you do not follow or does 'God' have another book that I'm not aware of?
But it DOES chronicle experiences you can relate to and develop opinions about their worth, etc. that are real. They can serve to guide your cognitive development of moral and decent behavior and attitudes, etc. Everything in the spiritual fossil record concerns the development of human cognitions about God, our purpose, good and bad behavior, etc. It informs and forms our spirituality (state of mind).
Yes, but that's the thing: they tell me how to feel; they don't reflect how I already felt, or experiences I've really had. I can promise you I had never been a fallen and then lifted back-up princess when I first heard the story of Cinderella - I hadn't even had a vaguely illustrative experience, i.e. falling on bad times; being treated poorly by a step-parent; then being lifted up to a much higher status.
Ergo, Bible stories, like any other mythological stories, are not necessarily a reflection of actual historic experiences but rather, are usually teaching examples, "why did it happen" examples (how did the world begin? Why is there evil in the world? Etc.), and cultural binding methods ("we share a common beginning, as illustrated in this story we have all heard since childhood").
I still fail to see how any of this means the Bible has validity as far as the events described. They may be able to reflect cultural values but they don't necessarily have any actual reality to them - any more than the fox and the grapes means foxes actually speak, or even that they eat grapes (never could quite get that one). MOST mythical stories from ANY society will reflect basic human values and lessons common to all and hence, do not necessarily offer clues to the unique experiences of a given clan or society. They can - for example, the flood story might reflect an actual flooding at one time, though it almost certainly wasn't "global" - but they don't have to and even when they do, picking out the valid facts from the myth is a job all by itself, sometimes impossible, and the amount of actual fact will vary...from loosely an historic event, all the way down to just one element that may not even have happened in the time and locale described. Therefore, it's pretty much impossible to determine the "valid" portions of any of these myths. (Archaeology tries to help but still does nothing to address the supernatural aspects of the stories, and OFTEN that's the main point of the story...the supernatural, the celestial, what "God wants," and so on.)
So I'm still not seeing how Bible stories have to have an element of historic truth or accuracy to them, except by coincidence or by some detail or other remembered down the line orally which may actually have NOTHING to do with the story that eventually surrounds it. Sure, the stories will sometimes contain partial historical accuracies; for example, they may name tribes that actually existed, or locales that actually existed. But this itself still doesn't lend validity to a story. Just because Interview With the Vampire took place in real locations and include real events - New Orleans, New York; Louisiana switching over to American hands; music of the time periods described - that doesn't mean there are really vampires. So, this "real history" aspect still doesn't necessarily lend any credence whatsoever to the actual story.
The cruel man will beat his children and his wife.
Why?
Because he can
...and in your world that is good enough reason.
I agree that this is a terrible line of reasoning, though it's been quite a popular one through the ages in all aspects of control, either small-scale (for example, the family you speak of above) or large-scale (tribes...cities...nations).
Sometimes I feel that people's spiritual beliefs reflect their own values and beliefs - for example, someone who doesn't mind using might to make right more easily accepts a "god" that does the same thing. I won't say that's going to be 100% accurate for each person, all the time; I can't know that. But it seems logical to me.
What we feel about the world and about ourselves can be reflected in what we "believe." If we believe the world is flawed and people are base and gross, we'll more readily accept that bad things happen because we ourselves are bad or flawed, for example. If we believe it's okay to be punished beyond all reason (i.e. eternal "hell") we may also believe we should punish others in over-the-top ways. And so on.
But it DOES chronicle experiences you can relate to and develop opinions about their worth, etc. that are real. They can serve to guide your cognitive development of moral and decent behavior and attitudes, etc. Everything in the spiritual fossil record concerns the development of human cognitions about God, our purpose, good and bad behavior, etc. It informs and forms our spirituality (state of mind).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
Yes, but that's the thing: they tell me how to feel; they don't reflect how I already felt, or experiences I've really had. I can promise you I had never been a fallen and then lifted back-up princess when I first heard the story of Cinderella - I hadn't even had a vaguely illustrative experience, i.e. falling on bad times; being treated poorly by a step-parent; then being lifted up to a much higher status.
Ergo, Bible stories, like any other mythological stories, are not necessarily a reflection of actual historic experiences but rather, are usually teaching examples, "why did it happen" examples (how did the world begin? Why is there evil in the world? Etc.), and cultural binding methods ("we share a common beginning, as illustrated in this story we have all heard since childhood").
I still fail to see how any of this means the Bible has validity as far as the events described. They may be able to reflect cultural values but they don't necessarily have any actual reality to them - any more than the fox and the grapes means foxes actually speak, or even that they eat grapes (never could quite get that one).
MOST mythical stories from ANY society will reflect basic human values and lessons common to all and hence, do not necessarily offer clues to the unique experiences of a given clan or society.
So I'm still not seeing how Bible stories could have an element of historic truth or accuracy to them, except by coincidence. They will often contain partial historical accuracies; for example, they may name tribes that actually existed, or locales that actually existed. But this itself still doesn't lend validity to a story. Just because Interview With the Vampire took place in real locations and include real events - New Orleans, New York; Louisiana switching over to American hands; music of the time periods described - that doesn't mean there are really vampires.
I see we are talking past each other, JerZ. I abjure historicity and do NOT believe the Bible or any of the other writings in the spiritual fossil record were designed to be historical. They are the spiritual fossil "cognitive bones" that reveal the evolution of our spiritual character as a species. The reason I place importance on them is that I believe some of them ARE guided (or inspired) as all human cognition CAN be, but NOT always. Parsing out the spiritual gems from the carnal and barbaric trash is no small feat, but In my view it is worthwhile. Admittedly, this view is informed by my personal experiences of this guiding consciousness in deep meditation that I call God's consciousness. YMMV.
I see we are talking past each other, JerZ. I abjure historicity and do NOT believe the Bible or any of the other writings in the spiritual fossil record were designed to be historical. They are the spiritual fossil "cognitive bones" that reveal the evolution of our spiritual character as a species. The reason I place importance on them is that I believe some of them ARE guided (or inspired) as all human cognition CAN be, but NOT always. Parsing out the spiritual gems from the carnal and barbaric trash is no small feat, but In my view it is worthwhile. Admittedly, this view is informed by my personal experiences of this guiding consciousness in deep meditation that I call God's consciousness. YMMV.
I don't think this. I don't have the knowledge to fully understand God's wisdom. And I don't have enough Authority to treat God as a fellow human and question some of the things. God does what God does - and he is not a subject to your or my judgement.
Yahweh has not, has not, has NOT, predetermined a man's future. Yahweh knows what a man will do with his own free will.
Yes, there are indeed things that are pre-determined and we can't do much about it, but for the most part in our lives, we do have the choice to go right or left.
Seriously think this out please,
If your god, like you said, has predetermine something that requires me you go right for it to happen, do I posses the "free will" to go left if i choose?
If so how does that impact gods predetermined plan?
Last edited by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15; 07-23-2016 at 06:50 AM..
yes, you did choose to be born.
and yes you have a choice in your lifetime at every moment to choose how you respond to every situation and circumstance you face
So some decide to be aborted so they will go straight to heaven?
Jesus didn't die in vain. God will be true to all His Promises.
Jesus IS god and can't die.
Why won't they teach you guys this in church?
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