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Nonsense. You show me a single, solitary scripture where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are said to be "one substance" and I'll believe the Trinity is a biblical doctrine. It was not "brought up as a diversion." It was brought up as an example of how mainstream Christians are doing exactly what you're accusing Mormons of doing. The Trinity is not taught in the Bible even as clearly as the doctrine of Eternal Progression. I can understand why you wouldn't want me to mention that fact, but maybe you just don't like having a level playing field.
The Trinity is not in direct opposition with the Bible, the belief that men can also become Gods is.
Joseph Smith and the LDS Church following him have taught that God the Father was once a mortal man who became exalted to Godhood. Human beings, according to LDS teaching, were preexistent spirits that needed to become physical, flesh-and-blood beings in order to progress toward becoming gods. Biblically, of course, God the Father has no need of a physical body and is already completely and fully God without one.
LDS theology faces an interesting dilemma at this point. On the one hand, if one holds that the Father was a man before he became a God (as Joseph Smith taught), this establishes precedent for us to become gods, but invites the question of how Jesus—or the Holy Ghost—became a god. On the other hand, if one holds that the Father was God before he became a man, this explains how Jesus and the Holy Ghost might also be gods, but eliminates any precedent for us, who are not already gods, to become gods. Of course, this second view also has the problem that it does not agree with what Joseph Smith taught at the end of his life.
The Trinity is not in direct opposition with the Bible, the belief that men can also become Gods is.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, jencam. I'm sorry you don't believe that God is capable of making His offspring become as He is. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.
Joseph Smith and the LDS Church following him have taught that God the Father was once a mortal man who became exalted to Godhood. Human beings, according to LDS teaching, were preexistent spirits that needed to become physical, flesh-and-blood beings in order to progress toward becoming gods. Biblically, of course, God the Father has no need of a physical body and is already completely and fully God without one.
LDS theology faces an interesting dilemma at this point. On the one hand, if one holds that the Father was a man before he became a God (as Joseph Smith taught), this establishes precedent for us to become gods, but invites the question of how Jesus—or the Holy Ghost—became a god. On the other hand, if one holds that the Father was God before he became a man, this explains how Jesus and the Holy Ghost might also be gods, but eliminates any precedent for us, who are not already gods, to become gods. Of course, this second view also has the problem that it does not agree with what Joseph Smith taught at the end of his life.
That's right. Scripture teaches of a divine Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere does it teach that they are "one substance." As The Book of Mormon teaches, "And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end."
Yes, the claim has been made a thousand times, but the evidence has never been produced. Had the Apostles ever taught the Trinity, as it was formally established as "Christian doctrine" at the first Council at Nicaea and as it is believed today, you'd be able to show me where. So much for dishonesty.
If you believe that Jesus is God, but not THE GOD of the Bible, then that means you're a polytheist. That is explicitly condemned in Scripture. God is God, there are none others like him.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, jencam. I'm sorry you don't believe that God is capable of making His offspring become as He is. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.
I'm not interjecting my opinion on the matter. I am quoting scripture. The one you 'quoted' from Paul, which comes from Corinthians, does not support the Doctrine of plural Gods at all. Paul is talking about Idols and how there is no God but God. And sacrificing of animals. I'm not sure how that got twisted into supporting multiple Gods at all.
Quote:
1. Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
3. But whoever loves God is known by God.
4. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”
5. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7. But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
8. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Becoming Godlike is a different conversation altogether than what Joseph Smith taught, that God was once a man and exalted to Godhood, and we can do the same.
They weren't "still arguing". A new heresy had crept in. It tends to happen that way. It has happened that way. We have the clear teaching of Scripture, but every so often someone comes along and writes their own, or claims their own message from God.
As for the nature of God, being a Trinity, it was settled 1800 years ago. But even today, there are people that come along with new ideas.
So in other words, it was not settled in the bible, which ended about 2000 years ago, is that what you are saying?
Well, for one thing, we don't just believe that anybody who claims to be a prophet is one. There is a very specific way by which we believe a prophet must be called.
By way of clarification... The Church is governed by the President (aka the Prophet), his two counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Whenever an Apostle dies, the remaining fourteen men meet, talk, pray for guidance and ultimately choose an individual to replace the deceased member of the Quorum. Typically, this is an individual who is well-known to all of them and who has served for a period of time in a position of leadership within the Church. This individual is then called to be an Apostle. If he accepts this calling, he is ordained by the Church leaders and sustained by the vote of the Church membership. He becomes the junior Apostle (in terms of seniority). He will serve as an Apostle until He dies.
When the President of the Church (i.e. the Prophet) dies, the Quorum of the Twelve, the keys of authority he alone held, are automatically passed to the Quorum of the Twelve and his two counselors. In a manner similar to how each of them was initially called, they meet, talk, pray and choose the new President from among their group. In the past (in other words, on each of the sixteen times a Prophet has passed on), this has always been the senior member of the Quorum, i.e. the man who has been serving in the Quorum of the Twelve the longest but there is no rule that says this must be the case. He picks two men from the group to serve as his counselors. That, of course, leaves a vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve, which is filled as previously explained.
This is the way we believe the Lord wishes the succession to work, so any man who is called to be an Apostle is called to someday potentially become the Prophet. Unfortunately for Ellen White, she was never called to be an Apostle. ;)
Yes, I was mostly aware of the procedure to pick the church president.
Now, of course Ellen White would not be an Apostle in the LDS church... she was not a Mormon. But let's go back to Joseph Smith, who DID proclaim himself to be a prophet. Why is one 'legitimate' and the other not? After all, Smith had to rely on a new book he wrote, and White only on the interpretation of an old one.
Thanks for taking the effort to respond to the many who are throwing questions at you. I don't agree with much of your interpretation, and every once in awhile you come across as a bit frustrated, which we all would be.
But thanks for a cogent discussion. There are a few on this board who have been directly asked to discuss their perspectives and have refused (BaptistFundie, I'm looking at you), and it is appreciated that you can do so in the manner you have.
Thanks for taking the effort to respond to the many who are throwing questions at you. I don't agree with much of your interpretation, and every once in awhile you come across as a bit frustrated, which we all would be.
But thanks for a cogent discussion. There are a few on this board who have been directly asked to discuss their perspectives and have refused (BaptistFundie, I'm looking at you), and it is appreciated that you can do so in the manner you have.
Although I do not share Katz' beliefs, her character and honesty is admirable. She is a credit to her religion.
And there is nothing to admire about one who asserts, accuses, and when questioned closely, runs away.
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