What Mormonism really teaches... (myth, verses, Scientology, created)

[jencam]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

So you don't believe Paul? He was talking about the existence of beings who are "called gods" both on earth and in heaven.

Paul, as I quoted, referred to 'so-called' Gods. He was talking about Idols and how they are not true Gods. Again, I quoted it above. It's not my interpretation that he was talking about Idols, he said so. He went on to say there is only one God.

I'm just going to leave that, though. I have done this so many times with Mormons at my door. They misquote the Bible, I ask what passage they are referring to, I flip to it and show how they are mis-quoting, it gets no one anywhere.

You all believe what your BOM says, and will twist scripture at every turn to make it fit. Whatever.

But why do you say polygamy was never a Mormon practice when it's Joseph Smith who started it?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jencam

From where are you quoting? You don't provide links.

Matthew 16:13-17. It's such a well-known passage that I guess it didn't occur to me that I'd need to provide any evidence that it actually existed.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jencam

Paul, as I quoted, referred to 'so-called' Gods. He was talking about Idols and how they are not true Gods. Again, I quoted it above. It's not my interpretation that he was talking about Idols, he said so. He went on to say there is only one God.

I'm just going to leave that, though. I have done this so many times with Mormons at my door. They misquote the Bible, I ask what passage they are referring to, I flip to it and show how they are mis-quoting, it gets no one anywhere.

You all believe what your BOM says, and will twist scripture at every turn to make it fit. Whatever.

It's impossible to misquote the Bible, jencam, if you quote it verbatim as I did previously, when I said:

Paul taught, "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." That is exactly what we believe. No Latter-day Saint believes that God is "one of many ruling over only this planet." We actually believe that the God of the Bible has created "worlds without number." He rules over all of them.

Paul was referring to beings "that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth." They are indeed, "false gods" with respect to their relationship with us, and to worship any other god than "our God" is to make that god an idol. To me and to all members of my Church, "there is but one God" and we are to worship Him alone. God is, according to the Bible and according to Mormonism, "the God of gods"; He is not merely "the God of men." I'd say we ought to just let it go at that.

But why do you say polygamy was never a Mormon practice when it's Joseph Smith who started it?

Good grief. I never said such a thing in my life. In 1852, under the direction of Brigham Young, polygamy (or "plural marriage") was instituted in the Church, about five years after the Mormon pioneers had entered the Salt Lake Valley, at which time Utah was part of Mexican territory. It was discontinued at the direction of Wilford Woodruff in 1890. Joseph Smith, however, had practiced it in the early 1840s (he was murdered in 1844). At it's height, it was practiced by only about 5% of all LDS men. 95% did not have more than one wife. Of the total membership of the Church, roughly 25% were in polygamous families; this is taking into account the number of wives and children born into polygamous families. 75% lived in monogamous family units. In other words, it was far less "common" than you seem to think. Men who were prosperous enough to care for more than one wife and her children were often asked by Church leadership to take on a second or third wife, often someone who was widowed. It definitely was never a "free for all" and each plural marriage had to be approved by the Church. My great-grandfather was a polygamist. I am descended through his second wife, who, at the time he married her, was a widow with two children. Personally, I'm glad they got married. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be here today.

[jencam]

I guess I misunderstood your post in another thread re: polygamy. That is cleared up!

I'm not convinced Mormons do not believe they can become Gods. Maybe you are not on the God track, or that is reserved only for the male gender, but to say that LDS only teaches Godlike and the whole men can become Gods thing is just made up, I don't agree.

A Mormon spent an hour with me arguing (politely) about Godhood, and why do I want to limit myself by not seeking it?

Also, I know from books that you might not know everything there is to know if you are not going through the Temple process and learning all the phrases and secret handshakes. And that statement is not meant to be rude at all, it's just a fact that not all Mormons are let in on everything all at once. Perhaps never for many.

Especially things they do not like advertised to the world.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jencam

I guess I misunderstood your post in another thread re: polygamy. That is cleared up!

Well, that's certainly good to hear. Perhaps we can move on then.

I'm not convinced Mormons do not believe they can become Gods.

Once again, you're confused. If you go to the link to the official LDS website, our belief is fully explained. If I was not able to explain it to your satisfaction, perhaps it will.

Maybe you are not on the God track...

That's entirely possible, and to be honest, it's not even something I have any aspirations to right now. All I'm really trying to do right now is make my Father in Heaven proud of me. I want very much to be the best person I can, and even that is very, very difficult sometimes.

...or that is reserved only for the male gender...

It's not. We believe God's daughters may become goddesses, just as His sons may become gods.

...but to say that LDS only teaches Godlike and the whole men can become Gods thing is just made up, I don't agree.

So you're saying that we're lying? If you don't believe me, and you don't believe the Mormon missionaries and you don't believe the Church's official website, I guess there's nobody left for you to believe except our critics. I would like to make just two more points on this subject, and then I think I'm going to stop arguing the point.

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

Also, I know from books that you might not know everything there is to know if you are not going through the Temple process and learning all the phrases and secret handshakes. And that statement is not meant to be rude at all, it's just a fact that not all Mormons are let in on everything all at once. Perhaps never for many.

So you have access to information on Mormon beliefs that I don't? Okay. I haven't been "let in on everything" yet, but you have? You know "from books" stuff about my religion that has been kept from me? Oh, my gosh.

Especially things they do not like advertised to the world.

You're a great entertainer, jencam. You know that? Talking to you has been a lot of fun.

[jencam]

I don't like this ex-communicating of people who speak their mind. That to me is a mark of a cult.

Sonia Johnson, for instance, who protested the church’s opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment in the 1970s, or a group of feminists in the 1990s.

This was in an article about how friends and family can't come to a wedding unless they are certified as good Mormons. It referenced this to talk about the history of people who try to bring about change.

And the Temple marriage thing, omg. I read books by people who wouldn't do the Temple marriage so the church took their family. Not FLDS, LDS. Say the husband wants it but the wife doesn't, she can come home to an empty house because her husband wants to go find a wife that will seal for eternity and make spirit families. How this doesn't go against the divorce prohibition, I don't understand except I guess the non-Temple ceremony wasn't as 'binding' to them.

Mormon weddings: Why you can’t attend your friends’ LDS wedding, but should still be able to celebrate with them.

[jencam]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, that's certainly good to hear. Perhaps we can move on then.

Once again, you're confused. If you go to the link to the official LDS website, our belief is fully explained. If I was not able to explain it to your satisfaction, perhaps it will.

That's entirely possible, and to be honest, it's not even something I have any aspirations to right now. All I'm really trying to do right now is make my Father in Heaven proud of me. I want very much to be the best person I can, and even that is very, very difficult sometimes.

It's not. We believe God's daughters may become goddesses, just as His sons may become gods.

So you're saying that we're lying? If you don't believe me, and you don't believe the Mormon missionaries and you don't believe the Church's official website, I guess there's nobody left for you to believe except our critics. I would like to make just two more points on this subject, and then I think I'm going to stop arguing the point.

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

So you have access to information on Mormon beliefs that I don't? Okay. I haven't been "let in on everything" yet, but you have? You know "from books" stuff about my religion that has been kept from me? Oh, my gosh.

You're a great entertainer, jencam. You know that? Talking to you has been a lot of fun.

Of course I do not have first hand experience but people who have written books HAVE. Some people in many religions work their way up into secret places and then later let it fly. You see a few people doing that with Scientology, for instance.

It's not. We believe God's daughters may become goddesses, just as His sons may become gods.

So, we are not in disagreement on this either! You believe you can become Gods!

[normstad]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Okay, I see what you mean. I sort of misunderstood your question, even though it's clear to me now what you were asking. Mormonism teaches that a person should always go to God with His questions concerning what is true and what is not. Obviously, it's a subjective matter, but I'd say that anyone who believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that Ellen White was not received this testimony as a result of prayer.

In Matthew 16:13-17, we read of a conversation Jesus had with His Apostles. It went like this:

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus was telling Peter that spiritual truths can be known in only one way and that it through God, using the Holy Ghost as a witness. Mortal men (i.e. flesh and blood) can be very persuasive, but that doesn't mean that even the most articulate, well-educated man in the world is telling you the truth. The Book of Mormon contains a verse near the end, urging the reason to ask God if the things he's read are not or not. That's what Mormon missionaries tell people. They say, "Don't trust us. Don't trust Joseph Smith. Trust in God. Ask him your questions and pay attention to His answer. Then do as He tells you to do."

Because you are an atheist, this advice is nothing short of ridiculous in your mind. But you asked the question, and that's the only way I can answer it.

Originally Posted by jencam

From where are you quoting? You don't provide links.

Seems to me that the passage was given just before the passage. But then anyone who studied the bible, like this atheist, would be aware that this was a well known utterance. But then, it is a well known fact that atheists know the bible better than most christians.

A very well known fact:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...than-religious



Oh, and Mormons came second.

Just saying.

[jencam]

All I'm really trying to do right now is make my Father in Heaven proud of me. I want very much to be the best person I can, and even that is very, very difficult sometimes.

That is difficult for all of us aspiring. It's especially difficult to please the Mormon God, which is yet another issue I have with the Church. I can't imagine living with the fear of being shunned.

All that pressure to get those pre-existing souls in the womb. I could never deal with it.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jencam

I don't like this ex-communicating of people who speak their mind. That to me is a mark of a cult.

I speak my mind all the time, and I have been very outspoken on a number of church policies I disagree with. I can tell you unequivocally that I do not feel that I am in any danger whatsoever of being excommunicated. You may wish to read my post #214, in which this same criticism is addressed.

This was in an article about how friends and family can't come to a wedding unless they are certified as good Mormons. It referenced this to talk about the history of people who try to bring about change.

Only Mormons who have a temple recommend may attend weddings held in an LDS temple. The Church does, however, recognize weddings held outside of the temple as being legally binding. LDS couples may be married by a justice of the peace in the judge's chambers, in an LDS church/meetinghouse (which is not the same thing as a temple) on a beach at sunset or in somebody's backyard, and non-members of the Church are welcome to attend. I actually attended a wedding several years ago that was held in the "cultural hall" of the LDS church meetinghouse where I worship every Sunday. It was officiated by our LDS bishop. He performed the wedding between a young LDS woman and her Buddhist husband who was from Thailand. Both families were present, along with many of the couple's friends. If both the man and the woman are LDS, they are encouraged to go to the temple to be "sealed for time and for all eternity" as soon as they are able to after the actual wedding.

And the Temple marriage thing, omg. I read books by people who wouldn't do the Temple marriage so the church took their family. Not FLDS, LDS. Say the husband wants it but the wife doesn't, she can come home to an empty house because her husband wants to go find a wife that will seal for eternity and make spirit families. How this doesn't go against the divorce prohibition, I don't understand except I guess the non-Temple ceremony wasn't as 'binding' to them.

OMG is right! You're right: You definitely don't understand! Jencam, you have got to me one of the most gullible people I have ever talked to on this forum. You will believe anything, won't you? (I mean "anything" except what I tell you and what the official LDS Church website tells you.)