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An aside: Throwing out accusations of hatred and whatnot is a tactic to shut down opposing viewpoints. If all such accusations were true, I'd hate everything, including my own brand of faith, when I disagree with aspects of it or discuss it in a way that someone decides to take personally when it's not meant as such.
Anyway, such tactics have no place in a fair discussion and are in fact attacks of their own.
Have I thrown them out against everybody else who has expressed an opposing viewpoint, jencam? Why do you think I am responding to your posts differently than I'm responding to everybody else's?
An aside: Throwing out accusations of hatred and whatnot is a tactic to shut down opposing viewpoints. If all such accusations were true, I'd hate everything, including my own brand of faith, when I disagree with aspects of it or discuss it in a way that someone decides to take personally when it's not meant as such.
Perhaps you might react differently if someone had implied that your beliefs were non-Christian and that your Church was characterized by cult-like behaviors.
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Anyway, such tactics have no place in a fair discussion and are in fact attacks of their own.
So report me. Have I used such tactics against everybody else who has expressed an opposing viewpoint, jencam? If not, why do you think I am responding to your posts differently than I'm responding to everybody else's?
If the thread were about Joseph Smith, I would fully expect to be asked questions about him.
I'm not asking you questions about Joseph Smith. I am making statements regarding what I think and feel. I asked a mod upthread if there is something different about this thread than others that means people may not discuss their views and disagree on things and she said no.
Depends on the arrangement I guess. If he was charging large sums of money to pretend to use some seeing stones to find things for people, you don't think that was a scam?
As to the other stuff, yes, it's a scam. But apparently it is on a level small enough to not be a crime .
You show me a man who has never broken the law, and I'll show you an invisible person.
If that's what you'r basing a disdain for Mormonism or Joseph Smith on, then you're petty. On Friday night I had some friends over to play cards. I don't remember how it came up, but one of the women briefly spoke about her "psychic" abilities. Does that mean that we should shun her and assume that everything she does is a scam? I think not.
I don't have any hatred, and I'd appreciate the personal attacks ceasing. Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon religion. You're saying that he cannot be discussed in a discussion on Mormonism?
How that comment came about was another poster saying the magical spectacles story is hard to believe,, and for me that is also, but even moreso as a claim from a man who had already been alleged to be a con man and charged as such. Whether he was convinced seems to be a matter of opinion. The LDS says one thing, other sources say another.
It's not just the stones, IIRC, there was another con he ran as well. I'll have to go to google to refresh my memory on that.
Please note the very frequent use on my part of phrases like 'To me', 'I think', etc. I don't know how more diplomatically to phrase things to fend off accusations of attacking and saying I HATE anyone or any faith. Disagreement on a matter does not = hatred. Discussing various POV does not = hatred.
Well if you can't prove that he was guilty, then why keep bringing it up. That's not very American. Or didn't you ever hear the phrase, "Innocent until proven guilty"?
I'm not asking you questions about Joseph Smith. I am making statements regarding what I think and feel. I asked a mod up thread if there is something different about this thread than others that means people may not discuss their views and disagree on things and she said no.
Oh, well that's good to know. You're not "asking questions" because you think you know it all already. You just keep on "expressing your views" and demonstrating your expertise on Mormonism. But you'll have to excuse me if I just start ignoring you.
You show me a man who has never broken the law, and I'll show you an invisible person.
If that's what you'r basing a disdain for Mormonism or Joseph Smith on, then you're petty. On Friday night I had some friends over to play cards. I don't remember how it came up, but one of the women briefly spoke about her "psychic" abilities. Does that mean that we should shun her and assume that everything she does is a scam? I think not.
Get your act together , my friend, and quit spouting nonsense . I expressed an admiration for Mormons, in case your reading skills fail you. But someone else made the comment that he was a con man, which was then questioned, so I provided the information relevant to the question. Your opinion of the severity of it is irrelevant to the fact he was charged with scamming people .
And someone claiming psychic abilities doesn't make them a scam artist. Taking money when you know your abilities are bogus and you are fooling your customers does. None of which is relevant to my response,which was to simply give the case in which Smith was charged with conning people .
Start taking the time to think your posts through, please. It would save both of us some time wasted on nonsense .
I'm not asking you questions about Joseph Smith. I am making statements regarding what I think and feel. I asked a mod upthread if there is something different about this thread than others that means people may not discuss their views and disagree on things and she said no.
I was raised Mormon & still attend church 3 hours a week and serve in callings, study scriptures, pray, have family-home-evening every Monday, have done genealogy, keep journals etc. I was married in a Mormon temple - where my dad and several siblings and friends could NOT attend. Since I had a faith crisis, I still do a lot of things Mormons are supposed to do except I no longer give 10% of my gro$$ income to the church and thus I no longer am considered temple-worthy. My husband, along with my mom’s support of him, threatened to divorce me since I no longer am considered temple worthy.
Transponder, & I’m sure others, mentioned some verifiable facts about Book of Mormon inconsistencies and Joseph Smith having multiple wives - he married some teens and some already married to other men. There are many other “trivial” issues but that’s his-story. Past is past and as long as it isn’t hurting people now, it’s not what I consider most concerning.
Despite the common Mormon bi-polar/polarized teaching, “The church is either true or not,” the church has some positives and some negatives.
The lds church has 2 great aspects which help a lot of people:
1) Awesome sense of community - we help each other
2) Striving to be better people
The lds church has 2 dysfunctional aspects which hurt a lot of people:
1) Financial corruption - charging for worthine$$/robbing from the poor (disobeying Deut 14:28-29)
2) Cult mentality - speaking against the church or its leaders is punished, leaders are not accountable, members are required to sacrifice excessive time, talent & money and often looked down on if they don’t.
As I try to do and teach my kids to do: take the best and leave the rest.
I was raised Mormon & still attend church 3 hours a week and serve in callings, study scriptures, pray, have family-home-evening every Monday, have done genealogy, keep journals etc. I was married in a Mormon temple - where my dad and several siblings and friends could NOT attend. Since I had a faith crisis, I still do a lot of things Mormons are supposed to do except I no longer give 10% of my gro$$ income to the church and thus I no longer am considered temple-worthy. My husband, along with my mom’s support of him, threatened to divorce me since I no longer am considered temple worthy.
Transponder, & I’m sure others, mentioned some verifiable facts about Book of Mormon inconsistencies and Joseph Smith having multiple wives - he married some teens and some already married to other men. There are many other “trivial” issues but that’s his-story. Past is past and as long as it isn’t hurting people now, it’s not what I consider most concerning.
Despite the common Mormon bi-polar/polarized teaching, “The church is either true or not,” the church has some positives and some negatives.
The lds church has 2 great aspects which help a lot of people:
1) Awesome sense of community - we help each other
2) Striving to be better people
The lds church has 2 dysfunctional aspects which hurt a lot of people:
1) Financial corruption - charging for worthine$$/robbing from the poor (disobeying Deut 14:28-29)
2) Cult mentality - if I were to state negative things about the church or its leaders in church, I’d likely have to go to court for excommunication.
As I try to do and teach my kids to do: take the best and leave the rest.
Charging money for worthiness?
ETA: OK you mean tithing. I was thinking of something else. But wow, I never thought about this before.
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Should Mormons’ place in the afterlife, though, be determined, at least in part, by the dollars they give here and now? Should blessings of the temple be withheld from those who can’t — or won’t — pay?
I was raised Mormon & still attend church 3 hours a week and serve in callings, study scriptures, pray, have family-home-evening every Monday, have done genealogy, keep journals etc. I was married in a Mormon temple - where my dad and several siblings and friends could NOT attend. Since I had a faith crisis, I still do a lot of things Mormons are supposed to do except I no longer give 10% of my gro$$ income to the church and thus I no longer am considered temple-worthy. My husband, along with my mom’s support of him, threatened to divorce me since I no longer am considered temple worthy.
Transponder, & I’m sure others, mentioned some verifiable facts about Book of Mormon inconsistencies and Joseph Smith having multiple wives - he married some teens and some already married to other men. There are many other “trivial” issues but that’s his-story. Past is past and as long as it isn’t hurting people now, it’s not what I consider most concerning.
So you and I have had words before, haven't we, Super Soul? I'm going to just try to let bygones be bygones and address the topics you've raised below:
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Despite the common Mormon bi-polar/polarized teaching, “The church is either true or not,” the church has some positives and some negatives.
I agree. (Does that surprise you?) I think we just disagree (to some extent) as to what's positive and what's negative.
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The lds church has 2 great aspects which help a lot of people:
1) Awesome sense of community - we help each other
2) Striving to be better people
I agree. Despite the fact that I attend only Sacrament Meeting these days and do not hold a calling at all, I am infinitely grateful that I was raised LDS. I believe that I am a better and happier person today than I would be had I been taught to believe in most of the teachings of non-LDS Christianity. I can go into these in detail if anybody's interested, but that's not why I started this thread.
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The lds church has 2 dysfunctional aspects which hurt a lot of people:
1) Financial corruption - charging for worthine$$/robbing from the poor (disobeying Deut 14:28-29)
2) Cult mentality - if I were to state negative things about the church or its leaders in church, I’d likely have to go to court for excommunication.
As every LDS bishop knows, the Church has a clear policy of not telling people whether they should be tithing on their net or gross income. I tithe on my gross; my husband tithes on his net. We both have temple recommends. If I knew exactly where every single one of my tithing dollars went, I probably wouldn't be very happy about some of the ways in which they were spent. But I look at tithing like this: I believe that literally everything I have in this life that is good is from God -- either directly or indirectly. Since I believe that I am very blessed, I do not begrudge paying a tithe to the Church. I will not be held responsible for any decisions as to where the money goes, and judging from how the General Authorities live, I don't see it going into their pockets.
I think you and I both know where the line is drawn between what kinds of criticism result in excommunication and which do not. I am quite a bit more liberal than most Latter-day Saints I know and have not hesitated in the slightest to express my viewpoint, even when it is at odds with that of "the Church." Most recently, I have stated on other forums that I do not like the fact that I don't appreciate the Church's leadership "urging me" to vote against the legalization of medical marijuana in Utah. The idea that I might be excommunicated for doing so has never even crossed my mind, nor have I ever been concerned that my very public support of LGBT right will be cause for excommunication or any sort of lesser Church discipline.
To me, the most negative aspect of the Church is that, culturally, we're all kind of expected to fit into a nice, conservative mold. I don't go to Sunday School or Relief Society any more because it's too stressful and frustrating for me to have to either keep my opinions to myself or have people judge me for not being "a good Mormon." I have issues with a number of Church policies and they drive me nuts. But when it comes to doctrine, I'm pretty much 100% on board.
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As I try to do and teach my kids to do: take the best and leave the rest.
And that's good advice.
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