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I think this thread is a very good example of the inappropriate way that people on both sides of the aisle respond when the talk is about religion...and I am guilty of it myself.
Katzpur began this thread to tell what Mormonism really teaches. He or she seems like a pretty good person. And I knew he or she was going to be thoroughly attacked. And I think that's a shame.
But on the other hand, while I have been interested in his/her responses, and as a person who had been on top of Hill Cumorah dozens of times since my family's home was located near by, I don't believe most of the story either. One part that sticks in my craw is the belief that there was a sort of treasure cave in Hill Cumorah that contained the Nephite records. Well, as a trained geologist, I not only know the geology of the Palmyra area, but I know that there is no possibility of a stable cave in a drumlin...a drumlin is a glacial hill of loose sand and gravel...never solid rock. But then again, more mainstream christians can't produce the tablets with ten commandments or the Ark Of The Covenant (well, except for Indiana Jones!), or virtually any other historical christian artifact mentioned in the either the old or new testaments.
I wish we (and I) could learn to debate but not attack. But, this is an intense part of the forum and it is the distrust on both sides that leads to the animosity.
Katzpur's a woman, phetaroi. Check out my profile.
He was apparently charged with scamming people over using his seeing stones to find things like lost treasure .
You're referring to this (from Wikipedia): "Meanwhile, the Smith family faced financial hardship...Family members supplemented their meager farm income by hiring out for odd jobs and working as treasure seekers, a type of magical supernaturalism common during the period.[37] Smith was said to have an ability to locate lost items by looking into a seer stone, which he also used in treasure hunting, including several unsuccessful attempts to find buried treasure sponsored by a wealthy farmer in Chenango County, New York.[38] In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for "glass-looking", or pretending to find lost treasure.[39] The result of the proceeding remains unclear as primary sources report various conflicting outcomes.[40]"
It seems no more of a scam to me than fortune tellers, psychics, and astrology is today.
You're referring to this (from Wikipedia): "Meanwhile, the Smith family faced financial hardship...Family members supplemented their meager farm income by hiring out for odd jobs and working as treasure seekers, a type of magical supernaturalism common during the period.[37] Smith was said to have an ability to locate lost items by looking into a seer stone, which he also used in treasure hunting, including several unsuccessful attempts to find buried treasure sponsored by a wealthy farmer in Chenango County, New York.[38] In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for "glass-looking", or pretending to find lost treasure.[39] The result of the proceeding remains unclear as primary sources report various conflicting outcomes.[40]"
It seems no more of a scam to me than fortune tellers, psychics, and astrology is today.
Depends on the arrangement I guess. If he was charging large sums of money to pretend to use some seeing stones to find things for people, you don't think that was a scam?
As to the other stuff, yes, it's a scam. But apparently it is on a level small enough to not be a crime .
I have a feeling that if the Mormon bashing (i.e. Joseph Smith was a con man) and other such claims continue, this thread will soon be closed. I really wish people would stick to the OP instead of using this thread to vent their hatred.
I don't have any hatred, and I'd appreciate the personal attacks ceasing. Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon religion. You're saying that he cannot be discussed in a discussion on Mormonism?
How that comment came about was another poster saying the magical spectacles story is hard to believe,, and for me that is also, but even moreso as a claim from a man who had already been alleged to be a con man and charged as such. Whether he was convinced seems to be a matter of opinion. The LDS says one thing, other sources say another.
It's not just the stones, IIRC, there was another con he ran as well. I'll have to go to google to refresh my memory on that.
Please note the very frequent use on my part of phrases like 'To me', 'I think', etc. I don't know how more diplomatically to phrase things to fend off accusations of attacking and saying I HATE anyone or any faith. Disagreement on a matter does not = hatred. Discussing various POV does not = hatred.
An aside: Throwing out accusations of hatred and whatnot is a tactic to shut down opposing viewpoints. If all such accusations were true, I'd hate everything, including my own brand of faith, when I disagree with aspects of it or discuss it in a way that someone decides to take personally when it's not meant as such.
Anyway, such tactics have no place in a fair discussion and are in fact attacks of their own.
So, this is interesting. Meant as a defense for Joseph Smith:
Quote:
One might legitimately claim that Joseph was mistaken about his prophetic claims, but it will not do to claim that he was cynically, knowingly deceiving others for his own gain.
I don't have any hatred, and I'd appreciate the personal attacks ceasing.
Yes you do. It's obvious, not only to me but to quite a number of the other (non-LDS posters) who have contributed to the thread, and who do not believe Mormonism to be true any more than you do.
Quote:
Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon religion. You're saying that he cannot be discussed in a discussion on Mormonism?
If the thread were about Joseph Smith, I would fully expect to be asked questions about him. I'm not a historian, I'm not a anthropologist, I'm not a linguist and I'm not a geneticist. I started this thread to address LDS doctrine. Some of the questions that have been asked are about LDS doctrine. I'm not going to continue to answer every last question somebody wants to ask me. I simply don't have the time to do so, for one thing.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has (particularly in the past) tended towards portraying Joseph Smith as truly "saintly." Everyone else has tended to vilify him. The truth of the matter is probably somewhere in between. I believe that he was a good man and that he did a great work, in founding a church that has grown from six members to over 16 million members in less than 200 years and whose members are generally highly respected and admired members of their communities. I also believe that, in many ways, Joseph Smith was flawed. Huge amounts of what we know about him are hearsay, in many cases from completely unreliable sources. On the other hand, whitewashing history usually comes back to bite you and I think the LDS Church is starting to realize that, and trying to present a more objective and balanced picture of our history than it has in the past. I try to keep my comments as objective as I can. I don't believe that can be said of certain posters.
Quote:
How that comment came about was another poster saying the magical spectacles story is hard to believe,, and for me that is also, but even moreso as a claim from a man who had already been alleged to be a con man and charged as such. Whether he was convinced seems to be a matter of opinion. The LDS says one thing, other sources say another.
By the way, what you refer to as "magic spectacles" is the Urim and Thummim. They are mentioned in the Bible. Google it, and then, from now on, whenever you read the Bible, just substitute "magic spectacles" for Urim and Thummim whenever you see those words.
Last edited by Katzpur; 09-16-2018 at 02:09 PM..
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