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and then strip away going to church as well and they are completely isolated and feel hopeless.
Sorry, Jeff, but it's been my experience that force-feeding kids religion doesn't make them more moral or give them empathy.
That has to come with time and life experiences, not stories about genocide and global floods. Not all kids develop at the same rate.
Most kids are still very self-centered because that is how we are born. We only know ourselves and what *we* want. Having a conception of "the other" doesn't happen until later on, unfortunately. Church isn't going to provide that, especially some of these radical churches that beat you down with your own sins i.e. Pentacostals.
Thing is, church wouldn't be a horrible place if religion didn't represent an anathema to kids and teens who tend to enjoy everything religion hates. Unless you shove religion down their throats at a very young age, which some actually find to be a form of abuse (I'm on the fence about that), teens are generally not going to start church-going for the reasons I've stated. Religion tends to despise youth culture and expect teens to be little adults -- which is nonsense given that a teen's brain is fundamentally different than an adult's. They are literally biologically different as if the two brains came from two different species of hominids.
I wasn't always an atheist and I remember going to church -- and I hated it. Church felt like an extension of school and having to sit there for an hour in uncomfortable seats was torture. Keep in mind, an hour for a teen feels like an entire day to them as they perceive time differently than older folks.
Sometimes it's not about converting. As one poster stated, "It is about denying ____ a springboard".
If you can't beat 'em, nag the hell out of 'em!
And that's sort of where I'm coming from.
I'm sick and tired of this christian mindset that is forced on people in this nation. And so I'm just here to say that I'm one more person who is fed up and christians need to back off.
Sorry, Jeff, but it's been my experience that force-feeding kids religion doesn't make them more moral or give them empathy.
That has to come with time and life experiences, not stories about genocide and global floods. Not all kids develop at the same rate.
Most kids are still very self-centered because that is how we are born. We only know ourselves and what *we* want. Having a conception of "the other" doesn't happen until later on, unfortunately. Church isn't going to provide that, especially some of these radical churches that beat you down with your own sins i.e. Pentacostals.
Thing is, church wouldn't be a horrible place if religion didn't represent an anathema to kids and teens who tend to enjoy everything religion hates. Unless you shove religion down their throats at a very young age, which some actually find to be a form of abuse (I'm on the fence about that), teens are generally not going to start church-going for the reasons I've stated. Religion tends to despise youth culture and expect teens to be little adults -- which is nonsense given that a teen's brain is fundamentally different than an adult's. They are literally biologically different as if the two brains came from two different species of hominids.
I wasn't always an atheist and I remember going to church -- and I hated it. Church felt like an extension of school and having to sit there for an hour in uncomfortable seats was torture. Keep in mind, an hour for a teen feels like an entire day to them as they perceive time differently than older folks.
Thing is, church wouldn't be a horrible place if religion didn't represent an anathema to kids and teens who tend to enjoy everything religion and some parents hate.
What evidence do you have that non-Christians are going to the Ark Encounter and becoming converted? Common sense would indicate that, for the most part, non-believers would not even want to visit the place. Seeing a dinosaur in an exhibit with animals that didn't exist until 65 million years after the dinosaurs went extinct wouldn't attract many to come see it as the Truth.
Speaking strictly in this sense (that it is an investment to convert non-believers), it has to be one of the biggest wastes of money since the construction of the Tower of Babel.
And as a former teacher of earth science, I agree.
It's an abomination (we get to use that word, too).
So you are looking forward to an epidemic of more suicide and people fighting?
People fighting? If there wasn't so many religious differences to fight over, there would actually be less fighting. Note, I said "less fighting" not zero fighting. I know you loathe to hear it, Jeff, but religion is the biggest divider of families, communities, nations, and entire regions of people. Since religious beliefs are *always* non-negotiable and more rigid than steel, there can be no compromise or concessions and, therefore, all that's left is violence.
The only people who would be committing suicide would be those who just couldn't go on without their god. I certainly hope you're not making the same fallacious mistake you used to make by claiming that suicide rates are higher in secular nations and, threfore, religion (or lack of it) is the reason.
I will agree that religion is responsible for one thing: Scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't kill themselves.
"Oh, suicide is the unforgivable sin, don'tchya know. *tsk tsk* You never want to do that or you'll be sent to aich eee double-hockey sticks!"
But I don't really count that as a good thing. What matters is the reason *why* a person even thinks about killing themselves, not the reasons why they don't do it. Considering that the secular nations tend to blow the lid off happiness quotients, I'm willing to bet that the suicide statistics include legal euthanasia which I do not consider true suicide ... and neither should you given that you're trying to imply that secularism causes misery and hopelessness which, in turn, causes a higher suicide rate.
Of course, forcing people to sit there and suffer with no quality of life because, oh no, it might anger god, is one of the cruelest things ever foisted onto a culture. But that's a subject for another thread.
Bottom line is: If Christianity died out on its own, that means people *wanted* it to, so why would there suddenly be loads of suicides?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I'm not. Course that is assuming Christianity is going to die out, and you have no prove that notion is a certainty. If it does then people will most likely make technology their new god which will create an even more socially isolated generation.
I'd rather have technology as our god than that which is worshiped currently by far too many believers -- especially those inclined toward the right-wing side of politics. They've made money their new god, and it has been that way for several decades now. Which is one reason why I oftentimes find myself thinking that these people really aren't Christians at all ... but worshipers of Mammon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You know what you didn't have back when we had blue laws and most people went to church? Kids mass murdering their classmates.
Well ... you had a fairly reasonable post going. Until you said THAT.
I see you're up to your old tricks of using spurious correlations and "proptor hoc" fallacies to make an argument.
Please explain to me how blue laws -- which I trust you mean laws that force everything to close on Sunday -- would decrease school shootings. I would *really* like to know how that works because I find absolutely no correlation or link between the two whatsoever.
Not to mention that Sunday closing laws directly interfere with the rights of Jews to practice their own religion since their Sabbath is on Saturday. As we've stated a thousand times: You have the right to practice your religion as you see fit, but you don't have the right to impose it on others who do not *want* your religion. Hence why Blue Laws were abolished -- they infringed upon the rights of others.
As for going to church, just think ... every Christian and Catholic who fought almost a thousand years of open warfare against each other ... all went to church, too. Just like all of those Shi'as and Sunnis who faithfully attend services at their local mosque and dutifully kiss the ground five times a day when the prayer call is played ... and then they strap on a bomb, walk into a crowded shop full of Shi'as (it's mostly the Sunnis who endorse terrorism) and, well, boom.
In fact, a whole lot of mainline protestants came out against this kind of reactionary comparison when certain big name preachers started claiming that the Sandy Hook shooting was punishment for taking prayer out of our public schools. I very much doubt you would receive a warm welcome from those same preachers for claiming that kids not being led by the ear into a church every Sunday is the causal factor in mass shootings. Because doing so misrepresents the God they worship and makes God look like an evil bastard -- which he technically is, but mainline protestants like to ignore it.
At any rate, you really do need to stop simplifying extremely complex social problems by claiming its all because they don't go to church. *sigh*
And yet, most people who commit mass shootings almost certainly would have identified as Christian considering how few in number we atheists are. We would have to be massively over-represented in the criminal world for that to play any real part. After all, we atheists don't point to every random crime in the news and claim they did it because they GO to church, so how about showing us the same respect and stop acting as though violence occurs because people DON'T go to church. Thanks in advance.
Actually, I figured out why Goldie is so adamant about defending religion.
Remember that he works in the porn industry.
And which demographic group is the biggest consumers of porn?
Think about it.
It is interesting that about 4 miles from my house on a major artery is a huge billboard from some christian counseling service that says a majority of christian males are customers of internet porn.
So you are looking forward to an epidemic of more suicide and people fighting? I'm not. Course that is assuming Christianity is going to die out, and you have no prove that notion is a certainty. If it does then people will most likely make technology their new god which will create an even more socially isolated generation.
You know what you didn't have back when we had blue laws and most people went to church? Kids mass murdering their classmates.
No. I'm looking forward to the end of christians trying to polarize the nation, which result in less suicide and people fighting.
Oh my god (pun intended)...blue laws. Really. Can't go to a grocery store on a Sunday. What a croc. But wait a minute...that would eliminate Sunday football! Yaaaaaaaay!
Nothing factual in your statement. I will point out again, tripadvisor and google reviews have overwhelming glowing reviews about this attraction. Thousands of people are glad they went to visit this "wastes of property" as you say.
...All you show here is a biased against Christianity. ...
1. You shouldn't be a poster bringing up facts...especially about this topic...the Ark Encounter...which is absolutely not factual.
2. I am a frequent used of Trip Advisor...it's a good way to see what's available in an area. But it has its limitations. I've seen local dog parks with as high a rating as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone National Park, and Yosemite National Park.
Yes, I advocate a certain sophisticated restraint when responding to Christian apologetics. But such exchanges do get heated (both ways), and I imagine many of those who respond have History with Jeff, who rarely restrains his tongue or vitriol of anything else, when responding to us.
OK... I will be on the lookout for this type of behavior in Theists on these forums.
I will say that the thread is provocative, however. It was like the Apologetics were sitting around in the living room, enjoying a spot of tea and watching old re-runs of "The Prisoner" with Patrick McGoohan, when Normstad breaks the door down, comes storming in and says...
"The Ark Encounter is losing money AGAIN!!! Nayh Nayh Na Nayh Na... What do you idiots have to say for yourselves NOW...Huh??....
No. I'm looking forward to the end of christians trying to polarize the nation, which result in less suicide and people fighting.
Oh my god (pun intended)...blue laws. Really. Can't go to a grocery store on a Sunday. What a croc. But wait a minute...that would eliminate Sunday football! Yaaaaaaaay!
I rather like F1 partly because you get the race all week (P1, P2, P3, Qualifying and the race. Sunday closing is almost dead in London (while i was there 2007 -11) but here it is still rife. Only the local swoopermart opens for an hour before lunch and closes again before the Puritan squad comes round. Muslim corner -shops open though. Their Blue (or green) law day is Friday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I agree that you can't just isolate one single factor as having a particular cause and effect. There are millions of kids who play violent video games and never have any desire to hurt a person in real life. I believe it is a combination of factors including lack of a church family or spiritual relationship which can create the recipe for someone to snap.
I can speak from personal experience that I was bullied relentlessly in school even starting in first grade. I can still remember to this day being in tears when getting on the school bus and no one would let me sit with them. They would scoot to the edge and shake their head and I would be forced to stand up for the bus ride. Not sure why the driver allowed that crap. I'm sure it wouldn't fly today. However, thankfully I could come hope to a loving family and had a church home where I felt accepted and valued as a member of the body of Christ.
Kids often just lack empathy, and will highlight any weakness or difference that they can exploit. Many kids don't have the support at home, and then strip away going to church as well and they are completely isolated and feel hopeless.
I sympathise with you. The school bus wasn't as bad as that for me, but I felt totally isolated as the stuff the other kids did (usually involving running up and down shouting "Bang, you're dead!" "No I'm not - I got you first") didn't interest me at all. Oh sure, when they wanted to win a quiz they'd get "Prof" to get them the points, but afterwards....well we had nothing in common.
Nor did I find it in religion, either Christianity or Buddhism. Oddly I found a lot more fellow feeling with Jews that I met at concerts (the Jews seemed to have a tremendous love of music). I could have been tempted to join, but (as Paul realised ) I couldn't be doing with all those blasted Rules.
In fact I never found anyone I could 'Talk to' other than my (ex) brother in Law (1) and his school pal who is now my best mate.
(1) a genius but a lazy sod. (I'm a lazy sod, too, and no genius) He would never do anything unless he felt like it. Just once he needed a degree for a job so he sat down and got one. He had personality problems though (Asperger's) and it was a joke in our circle that he would NEVER buy a drink, he would fill the house with books, move in with any friend that would share and fill THEIR house with books, too, and would explode with apopletic rage at any opposition. Ex. Bro in Law, as i say.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-26-2018 at 10:38 AM..
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What do you idiots have to say for yourselves NOW...Huh??....
