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You clearly haven't been following the argument (on several different threads, too) I think you may be confusing human thinking or preference with the actual weight of the argument.
The God -claim - which is what is fielded in all these arguments ("Just Have Faith") - is totally without merit, but it seems powerful because people have been spoonfed God -belief for centuries.
That being so 'God knows what's best' Seems a powerful rebuttal to the problem of evil, but -when the believer becomes the doubter, it becomes hard to believe. Deconversion accounts place the problem of evil as one of the most powerful reasons they bgan to doubt. Really reading the Bible is the other main one.
actually trans you are mixing up notions again. I get it though, anti-religion as the goal for determining how every line of logic must end tends to warp our best interpretation.
what we are doing is saying that "just have faith" is without merit. and let god claims fall where they may. Like "Just have faith, anti-religion is the best option for us to live our lives." Its silly to just have faith.
and, you are misrepresenting what we are saying. We do not say its a "powerful" rebuttal. We say that the problem of evil is such a weak argument that weak rebuttals are all that's need to counter it.
Try actually present what is said please ... what we are saying is that "the problem of evil is weak", not that their rebuttal is "powerful". we also say that your sect of atheism's "have faith that "anti-god" is the most logical conclusion" is exactly like some theists claims of "my god only". both nonsensical.
that is completely different than we need to keep an eye on religion because it can be a dangerous tool. like fire, guns, cars, and nucs.
You are wrong on both counts. The problem of evil of course covers many argument, like ET, evil in the world and evil in the Bible.
Of these 'evil in the world' is one of the weaker ones, but every time we have a Tsunami, Religious scandal or some atrocity, the question of 'why didn't god prevent that?' pops up, and the religious have to come up with some excuse, because it is powerful in creating doubt, never mind the force of the logic.
We do not care, of course, about your views and opinion on 'anti -theists'. We will say, do and be what we do are are, and let others judge us. If they listen to you, so much the worse for them.
That's exactly where you are missing the boat. It's not about winning arguments or being "right". We couldn't care less about that. It's about discovering something and trying to point it out to others. Saying, "Look! Don't you see it? Why didn't you look when I told you? Look!!! There it goes again!"
That does explain a lot. Thank you.
I had always assumed that people cared about the truth and reality, but your statement seems to imply that you simply don’t. You care more about a perception, about fostering that “something” you discovered whether or not it is logically consistent and integrates with reality.
Put another way, you care more about the parts than the whole.
Have I gotten this correct? I don’t want to misrepresent your position, but I a, curious, because while it explains a lot, I also find it completely baffling.
I had always assumed that people cared about the truth and reality, but your statement seems to imply that you simply don’t. You care more about a perception, about fostering that “something” you discovered whether or not it is logically consistent and integrates with reality.
Put another way, you care more about the parts than the whole.
Have I gotten this correct? I don’t want to misrepresent your position, but I a, curious, because while it explains a lot, I also find it completely baffling.
What is the truth about spirituality? I can't speak for Ozzy, but I think he's saying for him it's more about exploring than the need to be proven right/wrong about religion and spirituality.
What is the truth about spirituality? I can't speak for Ozzy, but I think he's saying for him it's more about exploring than the need to be proven right/wrong about religion and spirituality.
It is just a Theist - orientated bias dressed up as open -minded enquiry. This elusive Thing that he uses as an analogy would require verification as some phenomenon - even in the mind - in order to be taken seriously as something to be researched. NDE's is a good example, or the Effect of prayer. so what do we find?
Research gets under way and right away we get screams of protest form the believers who want theur Faith -based conclusion accepted Right Now as The Answer before research has even got going.
The last thing the Ozzys of this world want is open minded search and study; what they want is unquestioning acceptance of any mental quirk or claim they wave about as unquestionable proof of the Divine.
What is the truth about spirituality? I can't speak for Ozzy, but I think he's saying for him it's more about exploring than the need to be proven right/wrong about religion and spirituality.
I don’t even understand what spirituality is, so I really cannot grok a search for it.
I do find it mistifying that Ozzy can defend his position (as I perceive him to be doing) by saying that reality and logic don’t matter, and a couple of days ago he started to defend the SBC against charges of child rape because they did other good things.
So he uses logic badly in some cases, admits he doesn’t have a grounded basis for reality, and tries to defend heinous actions on a feeling as to whether it is correct it not. Bizarre.
I realize that I am making some assumptions as to how Ozzyprocesses things, and I may be incorrect. I would love for h8m to engage and clarify.
It is just a Theist - orientated bias dressed up as open -minded enquiry. This elusive Thing that he uses as an analogy would require verification as some phenomenon - even in the mind - in order to be taken seriously as something to be researched. NDE's is a good example, or the Effect of prayer. so what do we find?
Research gets under way and right away we get screams of protest form the believers who want theur Faith -based conclusion accepted Right Now as The Answer before research has even got going.
That last think the Ozzys of this world want is open minded search and study; what they want is unquestioning acceptance of any mental quirk or claim as unquestionable proof of the Divine.
The thing of it is, you've already debunked all-things-religious yet people continue to want to discuss the topic, ufos and all.
I can understand your frustration especially if you're wanting to move on to more secular discussions. Perhaps the concession is the religion and spirituality forums is not as active as it once was with religious queries, personal experiences, etc., so as you have stated you're still winning/owning R/S forums. The name of the game is to keep the onus on the next guy.
The thing of it is, you've already debunked all-things-religious yet people continue to want to discuss the topic, ufos and all.
I can understand your frustration especially if you're wanting to move on to more secular discussions. Perhaps the concession is the religion and spirituality forums is not as active as it once was with religious queries, personal experiences, etc., so as you have stated you're still winning/owning R/S forums. The name of the game is to keep the onus on the next guy.
I have to keep in mind that MILLIONs of people have not heard the Good News of critical skepticism. Each time a persistent denialist tosses the same old argument at us, we may sigh, but then tell ourselves 'Someone is seeing this argument for the first time'. And each argument makes point after point for skepticism, reason and evidence and makes Faith -belief, back to front logic and rhetorical cheating look a dog's dinner. Every point that gets over is a gain.
I have to keep in mind that MILLIONs of people have not heard the Good News of critical skepticism. Each time a persistent denialist tosses the same old argument at us, we may sigh, but then tell ourselves 'Someone is seeing this argument for the first time'. And each argument makes point after point for skepticism, reason and evidence and makes Faith -belief, back to front logic and rhetorical cheating look a dog's dinner. Every point that gets over is a gain.
It also helps to keep theist and agnostics from gathering here to discuss various topics, so that's another win. Every topic has already been debunked or else the poster is dishonest, not open-minded, dangerous, etc.
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