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When I read this early this AM, it really touched me:
blessed are the ones who choose that the effects of their cause......... serve their own unburdening, serve to deepen sincerity and capacity to receive/expand awareness/perception/viewpoint.
It was a great reminder - thanks.
of course when i realized where it came from I hit my head and said of course!! I knew I liked you from some reason
I will repeat what I've said before, I have have spent many years with anti-cult folks, have given my time and resources to support these organizations and friends in their efforts, many of which have been very CoS specific.
I have/will work with Anonymous, a group specifically targeted at CoS.
I count among my close friends people that have spent 25 years of there lives, the second longest court case in history, fighting and winning against CoS.
Other then that I am here to discuss MP and perhaps some general subjects of cults/anti-cult and behaviors/practices in those types of organizations
I guess I might add that from a theological/metaphysics perspective and from what little I know (I read dyanetics as a kid and have heard more details from ex-high level CoS friends) of their metaphysics/story - it doesn't resonate with me.
Though I do find alien to have echos of the Achenaci (sp) legends -with the 10th planet, nibru, and all of that as an explanation of humankind's origins. Those legends and stories make more compelling scenarios to me then CoS
For more, well I'll go to a CoS thread if ever compelled.
You asked and then complained that I did not answer your questions on CoS. So I explained why I did not answer.
It seems now you were really interested in something else? Apparently you were playing a game and its no surprise I didn't play, or bite at your bait?
Why not be straight-up, and ask / say what you mean?
We are talking about serious matters, potential harm, people being bilked of maony - in your words - so why would you be playing games?
You like making me spend hours at the keyboard? So you dont really care about helping people? Your not really concerned about the harm - this is playtime, a game, a bit of a joke for you?
No Surprise I guess
Saddening, disapointing, though
Though yo do seme to have an inflated sense of worth adn yoru impact on the word
Youve only costs me minutes in time, not hours.
Trying to get to some worthwhiole conversation - You did mention something along the line (and I am paraphrasing) :
- since CoS is so obviously corrupt
- and CoS member report positive, growth, value experience in their lives
-Doesn't that raise questions and doubts about my own personal experience, which I've said are positive/growth and valuable.
Something like that. Let me rephrase the question I think you are asking:
-if one takes a broad view and considers all spiritual paths
-and if we can agree that the paths range from utterly corrupt to seemingly beautiful (or simply from bad to grey to good)
-The facts seem to be that members of all these paths seem to feel they are getting something out of the path, at least for a time. Or else there wouldn't be members and followers.
In short - People on bad, grey, and good paths all seem to report positive, uplifting and growth experiences!
So - Can we draw anything about personal expediences and if a path is bad/grey/good?
Is that your question - albeit framed in some generic terms?
I took all of the CoS/MP stuff out of the question because in the end you are, or should be, asking a question about human behavior, spiritual journeys and cults - and the specific paths don't matter, right?
Oh, I care about helping people, but since others have begun following the money, that part is done.
I explained why I asked you about CoS.
CoS, MP, Catholicism, and many others are all the same: all about money and power, not spiritual enlightenment. That is not to say folks don't take comfort from them, to each his own. But, as a taxpayer I want 'for profit' orgs to play by the same rules as any commercial endeavor and not hide behind the 'religion' tax dodge.
I do admit a guilty pleasure in seeing your long posts, hey I'm human.
Keep up the good fight allan, however misguided it is.
CoS, MP, Catholicism, and many others are all the same: all about money and power, not spiritual enlightenment.
Now thats pretty much the crux of it isn't it.
You believe this and thats is what shapes your view
My opinion is that MP is about matters spiritual
- at least in a way that resonates with me more so then Catholicism or CoS.
Would you agree to this:
A organization/path/teaching that was really and mostly about money and power might also have some spiritual content.
and this:
An organization/path/teaching that was really about spiritual stuff, can also have some money and even power in their content?
If you do agree then my point would be that it can therefore get real messy in discriminating which is which.
There are those here that propose the second case is invalid, basically if its really/truly 'spiritual' there can never be money and no power overtones, concerns, etc. I've not much to say, good anyway, about that position. I find it extreme, implausible and idealic (sp) at best.
But I think there is another issue, is that you don't feel/believe that ANY guru lead path, in most sense of the tradition, can be mostly about spirituality - right?
However, if you do believe in matters spiritual and that spiritual enlightenment is possible, and that there can be authentic gurus then the conversation is about how to judge if a teaching and its teacher are mostly spiritual or mostly something else. right?
I refer to your posts as bigoted because from my perspective they simply seem to fit the definition
As I am experiencing things this definition is pretty descriptive of your's and others behaviors/tactics. While you highlight the justice and humanity of your 'side', the tactics way you are going about this are reflective of bigotry, religious extremist and I sense a tendency towards a sorta mob psychology, highly emotional banter, as I understand that term.
Of course that is my opinion, though I think anyone looking at the content of your arguments, open minded, would come to that conclusion. Anyway, that is why I called you a bigot, but I should have said that it was bigoted behavior.
It seems deepcynic refers to your posts as foolish because from his perspective they simply seem to fit the definition.
As others are experiencing things, the definition you offer is pretty descriptive of your behavior and tactics. While you highlight the “guru and path” of your “side” the tactics way you are going about this are reflective of bigotry, religious extremist and we sense a tendency towards a sorta cult psychology, highly emotional banter, as we understand those terms.
Of course, that is our opinion, though I wonder if anyone looking at the content of your arguments, openminded, would also come to that conclusion?
Anyway, that is why deepcynic calls you a fool, but maybe he should have said it is foolish behavior?
Allan, do you not see your own form of bigotry in this forum?
I claim no superiority over you. Yes, I know the Gary personally. You do not. There is nothing superior in that. Honestly, I wish I didn’t know the man or the organization. Again, nothing superior in that statement. That is a statement of fact.
This is not a rant of emotional, “ex-lover’s revenge”….whatever you mean by that. Are you implying that I am an “ex-lover” of Gary Olsen, or perhaps his wife, or possibly his secretary….? What kind of “ex-lover” revenge are you referring to? I do not seek vengeance. I am, however, seeking justice and truth.
Yes, I have more than 20+ years experience with Masterpath than you. I never told you to ‘shut up.’ Those are your thoughts expressed, not mine. And again, no claim is being made regarding past lives, etc.
As far as my credibility goes: I have no idea what you are talking about Allan. I’m not looking for your agreement as a determinant of my credibility. “Dark insider knowledge” again, those are your words, and your thoughts expressed.
But, yes Allan, I have experiences in knowing the leaders that you do not. Again, nothing superior in that.
As far as "a summary of my posts".... just sharing my life experience, that's all.
Allan, you say "one of your most damaging was about who reads initiates reports".... Allan, how is truth damaging?
I never said “hidden corrupt behaviors.” I said, “You fail to acknowledge the deceptive nature of the pretense that is being practiced.” And I stand by it. What I’ve said is true. If Gary chooses to deny it, then he is not telling the truth. Truth doesn’t cause damage. Lies do. Truth shatters the illusion of what is untrue. That’s what truth is meant to do.
The"Master's Works" were part of my job. So I'm very familiar with the writings and tapes. I spent years absorbed in the "Master's works".
I used to love reading and contemplating the "Works." I would spend 8 to 17 hours in a day giving my attention to the tapes, books, seminars, and satsangs, as part of my job.
And as far as seva goes....I would have performed seva for life. The best time I ever had on MP was in the beginning... I worked 3 jobs to attend a seminar in LA. I began a cleaning business just so I could donate 8 to 10 hours a day of seva to the path. I have a great deal of respect for anyone performing seva, and it has always held a sacred place in my heart. Nothing feels better than selfless giving. Nothing! So please know that all former chelas were BIG on seva.
I’ve never justified my view by claiming spiritual superiority and clearer thinking. I have said that there is false superiority of supposed spiritual authority on MasterPath, and again, I stand by it. I have nothing to defend with you.
I think it's wonderful that the path is working for you Allan. The first couple years were the best for me. Again, my experience. I'm not defining yours.
Yes, I’ve always had a deeply romantic strain when it comes to imagining the qualities, traits, and truth that a real “Guru” would ignite and inspire. Yes, my earliest childhood memories beginning at 3 through 6 years held very live images and strong thoughts of what it would be like to know, or to be in the presence of a real Guru or man of God.
So, Allan, like all truth seekers, an inner search defines my life experience. And yes, I’ve had inner experiences with past gurus living in the mountains … inner experiences that precede Gary Olsen and MasterPath. I’ve had inner experiences with Jesus, Native American Shamans, Soami Ji and Sawan. So, what’s your point?
Yes, I believe spirituality evolves. Does God evolve?... Or, is It an Essence so far beyond normal mental comprehension that we confuse our evolving understanding and awareness with It evolving? I don’t know. The right practice evolves? Hmm, interesting question. I believe it requires more than reading for 20 - 30 minutes a day. And I also think if reading is the prescribed technique, they should be reading the writings (or the "living impulse") of a real guru, and not the work of other people.
Rant? Do you see yourself, Allan? I’ve read some of Ken Wilber, and while I can appreciate his accomplishments in the world, his theories did not hold my rapt attention. Admittedly, it was a cursory perusal, as it didn’t have a magnetic draw for me.
Again, no superiority is being claimed over you. But maybe the last part of your sentence is the greater truth in all that you share. “You see just the opposite.” Which, if I understand what you wrote, that means you are claiming superiority over everyone on this forum because you are a chela on MasterPath? Or, just because you believe you are superior? Thank you for articulating your truth so eloquently and honestly.
I’m not attacking the practices of hundreds of millions, if not billions of people across the world when I made the assertion that real gurus do not charge for their services. It is a very rational foundation. It’s an earmark of an enlightened soul. That’s not an attack on anyone. You can choose to make it one. There are many solutions to the same problem. And last, yes, I now view Masterpath in much the same way that I view CoS, Eckankar, MSIA, and the rest of the Messianic Messenger Men: that’s what they do: they wanna be guru. And yes, I believe they are about power, money, adulation, manipulation, and control.
Manipulative phrasing: nothing manipulative in what I said. It’s pretty straight up. It was a simple question. So, what is the pearl of great price for the seeker of truth Allan? Is it found in becoming a dues paying member of MasterPath? Or, is it possible that the truth people seek will always be free. Isn’t “freedom” the very essence of the love and truth of God?
You really like that word corrupt, don’t you. Hmm, maybe you have some Freudian or Jung subconscious identification you are projecting. Juvenile and silly is your opinion.
I am no longer a seeker of truth Allan. I have no intention or desire to search for a spiritual path that delivers nothing. Why would I repeat the steps already taken?
I no longer believe that there is a spiritual path that exists in this world that delivers.
Nor do I believe Gary Olsen is a representative of God, of the true spiritual path, or the truth. What part of “irrevocably destroyed” do you not understand?
Yes, it is a new Age sound byte. Where did I find it? Your guru and his wife teach it. I figured that given your in-depth study of 3 years that you would recognize where it came from….especially since you project the attitude that you know All There Is…my mistake.
Your guru often likes to say that the student cannot go higher than the teacher. Is it true? No.
And yes, I believe it is very possible to exceed one’s teacher.
Yes, I believe there are students who are more intellectually advanced than their teacher.
I think I’ve answered most of your questions. But, yes I also believe it is possible to outgrow a teacher.
Reasoning skills: well, you often seem to miss the point. Case in point: former chela and the dues refund. You want to discuss the physical logistics, business rules, cancellation policies, and stuff like that. There is much more to the experience than the gross and obvious details of a refund that should have been automatically issued. Forget worldly rules Allan. It’s supposed to be a spiritual path, and they are supposed to honor the “sacred guru/student relationship’ over all other things. But, since you cannot see some of the important subtleties shared in Former Chela’s experience, I am not going to point them out for you. There is much more to learn from that experience than to tell someone to stop whining, no refunds, and oh by the way, welcome to the world.
If I missed any of your questions or points....so be it. But again, I will reiterate that I am making no claim of superiority over you. But 25 years counts for something Allan. And it doesn't make me a "mad,upset, ex-lover type..." You don't know me, or other longtime students who have left the path. You haven't walked beside us through all these years. and it is insulting when you talk and act as though your 3 years, and 2-3 seminars is equal to what we invested in time, energy, attention, and devotion.
And last Allan, I have nothing to prove to you. Why don’t you prove to me how to assess the efficacy of a Guru?
Last edited by end_of_faith; 06-12-2009 at 11:05 PM..
-What would I apologize for? To whom?
I don’t see how your being right or wrong in the end, makes a bit of difference about your behavior. I don't see the ends justifying the means here, do you? Being correct about something, isn't grounds for being a bigot, is it?
-About your speculation when I don’t respond in a timely fashions
I see a few times you have chosen to claim some kind of knowledge about why I've not responded - like I am afraid or over whelmed by the truth of your argument. ‘He’s probably not responded because..’ The simple point is that I find it kinda foolish to be taking advantage of that to claim some kind of victory for your negative and prejudiced barbs. I would note that the quality and level of conversation here don't require that much time to respond to. If one try too stick to facts and bypass the negative stuff, there isn't much left.
.
Good questions Allan. Have you realized the answers within yourself yet?
I don’t read deepcynic as claiming some kind of victory. I read him as someone who says much with few words. I respect that quality in a person.
And if the quality and level of conversation doesn’t require that much time for you to respond to, then why do you bother responding at all?
And, if the level of conversation is so below your exalted state of blissful inner commune, why do you bother participating?
I believe you must first know "facts in order to stick to them.” And, are you inferring that you are a pure channel of positivity and spiritual uplift, while the rest of us are negative and evil?
The time spent on this forum happens before and after writing. So, Allan, you are correct. The actual writing happens easily and naturally.
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