Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Hi Ben Seeley, Yes, Gary and Joy flew commercial flights until the chela mentioned purchased a small plane, became a pilot, then he sold that plane, and bought a different plane."
"That chela's widow donated the money for the privately chartered jets to fly Gary and his wife to seminars."
Thanks for replying, first of all, and hello.
And thanks for correcting my misimpression. Everything I said was true as far as I know (except about the delayed or canceled flight, which was my wrong assumption), and it was everything I knew about the subject. But, as you describe it, the impression I had is incorrect, when it comes to the time period of ~2002-???.
[Incidentally, it sounds like we both had a close connection to the accident. The college student I was tutoring at the time was at her home in the neighborhood when the accident happened, within a few houses even. Quite an odd coincidence.]
On the other hand, you had previously left out some vital information. You never mentioned the commercial flights, which I had to do. And you never mentioned that it wasn't the chela membership who were paying for the flights, but a single pilot donating his services, and then his widow paying for flights after the chela died. Both the chela and his widow could afford it, obviously.
My question is, who is the victim? As you described it, the chela, and later his widow, knew exactly what they were doing, and it was generous. If it helped Gary and Joy do better in their lectures, that's to everyone's benefit. It wasn't you or me paying for it. You created the false impression that chelas were being ripped off, when this wasn't the case.
The only potential (minor) victims I see at the moment are anyone who had to read or reply about what still seems like a complete non-issue.
"Emotionality???? No. Simple truth!"
I wasn't singling you out when I wrote about "emotionalism".
However, I'd say there's definitely plenty of emotionality in your response (????, etc.). Emotions can be a wonderful thing, and one can be emotional and truthful at the same time. But there is undeniably a lot of emotional charge being hurled around in this discussion (by everyone). Emotionalism often offers little help in clarifying what's true and what's not; in the thousands of words I read of yours, there was little real information.
"I may or may not respond to the rest of stuff you are saying...."
Well, feel free to make full use of your jivan mukti . And I do hold it in my awareness that you are fundamentally soul, as I hope you do for me as well, no matter how many bad ideas our minds may come up with. It seems to be what they always want to do...
I know you have been and are as sincere as you know how to be, which seems tremendously sincere. If we met under different circumstances I think I would have liked you on the spot.
Addendum after initial posting: I also want to acknowledge you've had real experiences, whatever they may have been. I did think you must have quite a lot of familiarity with MasterPath, given some of the stuff you said. Much of what you've said, when it comes to your evaluation of MasterPath (especially stuff I didn't address, because there was nothing solid to address), seems off to me. But I want to say I don't doubt you've had real experiences, and they have been significant, no matter what conclusions you've drawn from them.
It seems important that your experience be acknowledged, and I want to do that. I also know I was a beneficiary of the seva you did, too. Thank you.
Last edited by Ben Seeley; 06-18-2009 at 09:50 PM..
"Hi Ben Seeley, Yes, Gary and Joy flew commercial flights until the chela mentioned purchased a small plane, became a pilot, then he sold that plane, and bought a different plane."
"That chela's widow donated the money for the privately chartered jets to fly Gary and his wife to seminars."
Thanks for replying, first of all, and hello. And thanks for correcting my misimpression. Everything I said was true (except about the delayed flight, which was my wrong assumption), and it was everything I knew about the subject. But, as you describe it, the conclusion I made is incorrect, when it comes to the time period of ~2002-???.
On the other hand, you left out some vital information. You never mentioned the commercial flights. And you never mentioned that it wasn't the chela membership who were paying for the flights, but a single pilot donating his services, and then his widow paying for flights after the chela died. Both the chela and his widow could afford it, obviously.
My question is, who is the victim? The chela, and later his widow, knew exactly what they were doing, and it was generous. If it helped Gary and Joy do better in their lectures, that's to everyone's benefit. It wasn't you or me paying for it. You created the false impression that chelas were being ripped off, when this wasn't the case.
The only potential victims I see at the moment are anyone who had to read or reply to everything that's been written about this complete non-issue.
"Emotionality???? No. Simple truth!"
First of all, I wasn't singling you out when I wrote about "emotionalism".
However, I'd say there's definitely plenty of emotionality in your response (????, etc.). Emotions can be a wonderful thing, and one can be emotional and truthful at the same time. But there is undeniably a lot of emotional charge being hurled around in this discussion (by everyone). Emotionalism often offers little help in clarifying what's true and what's not; in the thousands of words I read of yours, there was little real information.
"I may or may not respond to the rest of stuff you are saying...."
Well, feel free to make full use of your jivan mukti . And I do hold it in my awareness that you are fundamentally soul, as I hope you do for me as well, no matter how many bad ideas our minds may come up with.
I know you have been and are as sincere as you know how to be, which seems tremendously sincere. If we met under different circumstances I think I would have liked you on the spot.
Well, thank you Ben.... can I assume your post is an example of your jivan mukti in action?
And I hold it in my awareness that your core essence is soul... which by the way..."fundamentally?" .... You think what I'm experiencing is a "bad idea" that my mind has come up with??? You have every right to your "opinionated exaggeration," though it is not based on knowing me, or the outer & inner reality of what I have, and am currently experiencing.
And last, we may have already met, and if we haven't met in person, we've certainly shared space in more than one seminar and satsang because I've attended them all, sitting on that back row with all the other staff members, right next to Joy... and if your mom saw Gary on a plane, she most likely saw me too...
And the few seminars that I was not in attendance was due to illness, or caring for Gary's parents or pets, or Joy's personal needs.
there are reasons that I decided to remove my post Ben... but, I will thank you for re-posting it for me....
That's an expense account, I assume it is for expenses. I recall Dennis did a tremendous amount of domestic and international travel during that year.
Another comment (I forget by who) suggested Dennis wasn't earning his salary. Given all the traveling and lecturing he's done, all over the world, and the book he wrote and the books he's helped write, I'd say he's certainly earned his salary.
.
".... all over the world....???" To my knowledge Dennis has traveled to Canada to speak for MP. And I don't believe Zihautanejo, Mexico qualifies for what you are describing.... so, is this an example of your lack of "facts," or is it opinioniated exaggeration? I hardly think a few trips to Canada accurately depicts your description of "all over the world."
Oh by the way, the "book he's helped write".... you are also reading some of my work in that Common Seeker Questions book, and the end result of that book has more to do with the "inner guidance and vision" that I was experiencing than it does with the "outer direction" Gary gave Dennis... but that experience is another story...
Dennis Holtje is a loving soul, and I have no contention with him.
Ben, thank your for your post that I am just now reading.... I posted a couple other responses before reading your post.
I'm gonna bow out of this for awhile for reasons that I cannot state online. I wish you the very best Ben...
and yes, it is an odd coincidence we share regarding that special soul who translated that day.... there was more to the experience that I will not post... it was very sacred and private.
I was the only one who saw the news coverage. I was riveted to the screen, and the interviews with the family and people who witnessed it happening.
When I called Gary and Joy to pass on what had happened, I remember how they answered the call, the message being delivered, and the words they spoke... their response was a bit of a surprise for me... and all I could see was this sincere chela, who one week earlier, flew (on his dime) from Malibu to Yucca Valley, picked up Gary and his dad, and then flew them from Yucca to Temecula for Gary's dad to visit a chiropractor, and then he flew them back to Yucca Valley, and then he flew back to Malibu.... wow!!! Now, that is SOME seva.
All done so that Gary's dad could fly in a small private plane.... A chela spends days and many thousands of dollars to spare Gary an hour or two out of his day...
To my knowledge, I don't believe anyone attended the memorial service. I always felt badly about that. That individual deserved to be recognized and honored as he honored and respected those whom he served so righteously....right until the fiery end! IMHO.
"Well, thank you Ben.... can I assume your post is an example of your jivan mukti in action?"
Absolutely. I've exercised my freedom- how wise it has been is yet to be determined!
"You think what I'm experiencing is a "bad idea" that my mind has come up with???"
No. I think, for example, that making a big deal out of air travel was not a great idea (nor is it the greatest tragedy to ever befall humankind, either). Likewise, my assumption that, for example, Gary couldn't attend a lecture because it was a commercial flight rather than a private flight (which I assumed wouldn't have had problems), was a bad idea. I didn't know it for a fact, but went ahead and said it without even noticing I could be wrong.
Communication is difficult, especially online with strangers, so I'm happy to clarify what I meant. I meant that I expect you have made mistakes, and will make mistakes, and that I have made them and will make them, but it doesn't change the fact that we are soul, and it doesn't mean we lack sincerity. And from my POV, the mistakes our minds make are sometimes what they do best, sneaking in there with the desire to exaggerate, assume, express negative emotions, etc. It's just what they do. Nothing to feel bad about.
Sometimes I try to communicate too precisely (and sometimes fail at it, too). My understanding is that our subjective experience is, by definition, absolutely true. The conclusions (ideas) drawn from our experience are always less true. The way we would describe what happened always loses some of the detail of the actual experience, or adds in detail that wasn't in there originally (false memory, confabulation, etc.- our brain manufactures this stuff all the time).
So like, while I don't think the air travel issue is a big deal, and I thought you left out some detail (my disagreement with your conclusion), I really appreciate the experience you shared. That part was true. I learned some things I didn't know before, and that was valuable to me at least.
Likewise, I doubt some of your claims, not because I think you invented your experiences out of whole cloth, but because many of them describe experiences which involved other people (so, why did they do what they did?), meaning it's not a claim based on the whole truth, or the conclusion seems like it's skewed, exaggerated, missing detail, speculative, etc. To quote myself- "But the claims generally ring false to me, like they are speculative or exaggerated."
And now I'm way off on a philosophical tangent... Like, if you told everyone all the worst things I've done, and only that, you could get everyone to believe I was a horrible, horrible person. Tell them the best things, and I'd appear to be a saint. But the real truth, the whole truth, would be balanced between those extremes. I don't know that you've said anything about your experience which isn't technically true, but it seems out of balance- only hearing one side.
"You have every right to your "opinionated exaggeration," though it is not based on knowing me, or the outer & inner reality of what I have, and am currently experiencing."
Perhaps the addendum I wrote in my prior post will be a decent reply, and what I wrote in this post.
By the way, if we converse much at all, you'll probably notice me making a lot of minor edits right after I publish a post, and sometimes larger ones. When I publish something, at the time it seems like "oh yeah, this is all exactly true and proper and everything". And then afterwards I immediately start noticing all the little ways it's just not as right or kind as it could be. This is part of why I'm familiar with at least my mind's own failings, as I spot these things. And I am pretty sure everyone else's minds are prone to roughly the same tendencies.
"And last, we may have already met, and if we haven't met in person, we've certainly shared space in more than one seminar and satsang because I've attended them all, sitting on that back row with all the other staff members, right next to Joy... and if your mom saw Gary on a plane, she most likely saw me too..."
I'm sure you're right . Thanks again for all you've done for me and others. Having had such universally splendid seminar experiences, I'm sure you deserve some of the credit.
".... all over the world....???" To my knowledge Dennis has traveled to Canada to speak for MP. And I don't believe Zihautanejo, Mexico qualifies for what you are describing.... so, is this an example of your lack of "facts," or is it opinioniated exaggeration? I hardly think a few trips to Canada accurately depicts your description of "all over the world.""
Hm, I could have sworn he's been to England, Australia, and I thought Africa. But I could be conflating his trips with the trips of other vahannas. Or perhaps more recent trips. The only long-distance trips I can definitely recollect, come to think of it, are as you describe to Canada and Mexico, lots of trips to Hawaii, and some New England trips.
Anyway, regarding my error (I'm going to concede it for now, since you are likely to have a better memory), it's not from a lack of facts. I read all the bulletins . But a faulty memory is likely involved, perhaps based on a general impression he was a very busy bee for a while there (as were other vahannas), and certainly some exaggeration is also involved. "All over the world" was an exaggeration even if my memory was accurate. See? I make these mistakes, hence my familiarity . As always, I'll try to do a better job.
"To my knowledge, I don't believe anyone attended the memorial service. I always felt badly about that. That individual deserved to be recognized and honored as he honored and respected those whom he served so righteously....right until the fiery end! IMHO."
Well, I attended it, for starters. It was held in a jazz club, and I think it was at full capacity. I recognized many other chelas, and since I'm not a very socially-familiar chela there could have been many I didn't recognize. Someone- Gary? Dennis? supposedly slipped in toward the end, but I never looked back there, I just heard some other chelas talking about it. I guess that's in the category of hearsay.
It was also the most rocking, socking, awesome memorial service I've ever attended or heard of! And that's no exaggeration . Former musician friends, his brother, his wife, an overseas chela, the high school band leader, and the pilots who trained him all gave moving speeches (the pilots described him as the best student they'd ever had). There was a great video tribute. His wife gave a very moving vocal performance of an original song. It helps that, as you say, the chela who died was such a special soul, so that something wonderful could be centered around him.
And then the high school band which he was flying back from helping (for free), when he crashed, and the other musicians, and his wife, all got together on stage and played some pretty awesome music. One of the pro musicians said the high schoolers were as good as they were . Which I think was an exaggeration, but it had a kernel of truth in it- as exaggerations do.
" I'm gonna bow out of this for awhile for reasons that I cannot state online. I wish you the very best Ben..."
Thank you very much for all you've shared, and being willing to converse with me. I'm surprised that at the end of the evening I feel honored for this experience. I wasn't expecting that. Many blessings to you, wherever you go.
Last edited by Ben Seeley; 06-18-2009 at 11:27 PM..
It was also the most rocking, socking, awesome memorial service I've ever attended or heard of! And that's no exaggeration . Former musician friends, his brother, his wife, an overseas chela, the high school band leader, and the pilots who trained him all gave moving speeches (the pilots described him as the best student they'd ever had). There was a great video tribute. His wife gave a very moving vocal performance of an original song. It helps that, as you say, the chela who died was such a special soul, so that something wonderful could be centered around him.
And then the high school band which he was flying back from helping (for free), when he crashed, and the other musicians, and his wife, all got together on stage and played some pretty awesome music. One of the pro musicians said the high schoolers were as good as they were . Which I think was an exaggeration, but it had a kernel of truth in it- as exaggerations do.
" I'm gonna bow out of this for awhile for reasons that I cannot state online. I wish you the very best Ben..."
Thank you very much for all you've shared, and being willing to converse with me. I'm surprised that at the end of the evening I feel honored for this experience. I wasn't expecting that. Many blessings to you, wherever you go.
And thank you Ben.... your words speak for both of us... the same is true for me... thank you so very, very much for what you've shared. I am also surprised and deeply moved...
So, it appears that what we have here is some really good folks that have been taken in by this Gary Olsen character.
Some still buy his line of crap, others have realized that he is not a saint, but a fraud.
Yes, that is my opinion, but it is backed up by pragmatic experience and a knowledge of his un-saintly-like behaviors.
Most of these 'gurus' are nothing more than charlatans that have hit upon an easy way to make money. Say whatever you want, but it is true.
In Gary's case isolated things like choice of planes, plagiarism, questionable finances, hypocrisy, etc. might not mean much in and of themselves, but when you put them altogether...
well, some will never get it, but others will question.
Thank you Carma and Ben, especially Ben for doing what my temperament or style of communicating didn't allow for. You continue to amaze and teach me.
I came here for a couple of reasons, one being to just speak my knowledge of MP to the original posts. Another was some interest, after years of anti-cult work, to be on the other end of the issue, being accused of being in a cult.
Another was simply to see what truths about MP I could pull. I am about to do my 2cd initiation, and this was the last in a long process of investigation.
One aspect of the experience is the deep realization of how deeply bigoted and judgmental the anti-cult side of the house can be. Very shallow at times, accusations without foundations, attacks, etc. Expected but a bit disappointing.
Another aspect of this experience is how much it has deeply resolved my intent to move forward with MP.
As a summary, and in my opinion, the 'evidence' is paltry, debatable and often decades old. The most promising place for evidence of a harmful and destructive cult was from the former 20 year+ chela. Yet that has for the most part been underwhelming. Its about differences in policy, personal impressions, facts that don't align with others etc. Even if one sets all those 'credibility' issues aside, its still not a large bucket of issues, not real damaging or proof if harm, people being brainwashed, their bank accounts being raped and pillaged, etc.
Overall the lack of hard, major 'evidence' in this 20/25 year old path is very confirming, for me.
In the end two main observations:
Money - I like the learning I am getting for what I am paying. For $400 bucks a year or so, I am learning stuff that after years of spiritual searching I find finally seem to put all the pieces together. I've spent much more for a less quality learning experience.
MP is not ripping me off in terms of $, I am getting value for my $ so to speak.
Harm - I've still not seen anyone speak of MP harming them, causing the kind so psychological issues paths like CoS do. I guess some chelas might find MP and use it to pull away from family and friends, etc. But thats about them, not MP or its teaching. MP has pushed me into my life, not away from it. It doesn't have us closing ourselves off and retreating from society
So in the end I don't see nor understand the harm/destructive factor of MP.
Thanks everyone, for the time spent. Its always good when a process like this reaffirms someones faith.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. And I do hold it in my awareness that you are fundamentally soul, as I hope you do for me as well, no matter how many bad ideas our minds may come up with. It seems to be what they always want to do...