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I repeat . . . Jesus died BECAUSE of our sins. His treatment by the men of power at the time was inevitable given His message of love and hope and freedom from the oppressive "laws" created by men. He brought the message anyway and showed the TRUE NATURE of God by not smiting anyone and loving us all through all His suffering and crucifixion. His resurrection (rebirth as Spirit) provides a connection for us ALL to God in "one Spirit" using the power and grace of His love.
Why do christians always say this? I am japanese, jesus did not die for my sins. I have absolutely nothing to do with a woman he created out of dirt and a rib (lol?) who ate a fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her too.
I look at it like this, imagine a car salesman comes to your house and says, we made this car for you! You need to buy it now and drive it everyday! First of all I did not ask for you to make that car, so no I don't need to buy it. I did not ask for jesus to die for "my sins" (who is really the sins of only eve not me), jesus died for nothing then, and his death was absolutely no different then what other people suffered under the romans. Did all the other humans who were crucified also die for me? Jesus did not die for me period, he was murdered, I did not ask for anything, nor did i ask to go to a "heaven" that I didn't even know about until i visited the USA.
Also if jesus died for my sins, then i am going to go sin and sin and sin since he died for my sins already right? Doesn't make any sense. God didnt have to send his son (who is also himself lol) to die for his creations, he could have just made it so. I feel bad for jesus and the bad treatment he got from his father (who is also himself) and the bad logic for his death.
I would interpret this differently from perhaps a different non-Christian POV. Let's assume the man existed and lived and died in a context that closely resembles the Biblical texts.
I would say he DID die for our sins. Martyrs, particularly those of high morals and righteousness die the deaths of many, as the vast majority of us die having lived rather cowardly lives. Their deaths affect us greatly and spiritually, they die on our behalf.
Our world today is shaped by the noble sacrifices of untold millions who died for us so that we live the lives we now live.
So although an atheist, I hold men like Jesus in the highest regards. A teacher, man, and leader whose guidance remains deep within, whether Western or Asian. I am humbled by him.
Disbelief in physical deities and fairy tales, does not mean that lessons cannot be derived or greater intuition of Self and compassion for my fellow man cannot be attained through his example, whether archaeologically demonstrated or simply by way of allegory.
I repeat . . . Jesus died BECAUSE of our sins. His treatment by the men of power at the time was inevitable given His message of love and hope and freedom from the oppressive "laws" created by men. He brought the message anyway and showed the TRUE NATURE of God by not smiting anyone and loving us all through all His suffering and crucifixion. His resurrection (rebirth as Spirit) provides a connection for us ALL to God in "one Spirit" using the power and grace of His love.
Proof varies for each of us . . . but the acceptance of His existence for over 2000 years by multiple generations in various societies and cultures is compelling. It is especially so since He was a lowly carpenter in an unimportant Jewish backwater of the Roman Empire with NOTHING significant to His resume to give Him historical significance. The fact that so many legends presented the template in varied degrees of cognitive sophistication by ancient primitive "prophets" and "religions" and they culminated in His undeserved scourging and crucifixion in fulfillment on the most proximate of the prophesies (still fulfilled centuries and millennia after His death). It all seems so improbable and inexplicable for it to have achieved such multi-millennial traction in the psyches of so many over so many generations.
It all seems so improbable and inexplicable for it to have achieved such multi-millennial traction in the psyches of so many over so many generations.
....but that would apply to all religions and gods of the past. Hinduism is , I think, the oldest religion in existence today. Does it's longevity and huge number of adherents mean that Krishna really did exist.
People built beliefs around Osiris and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Osiris existed.
People built beliefs around Hercules and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Hercules existed.
People built beliefs around Krishna and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Krishna existed.
People DO believe in religious myths and people DO write about religious myths.
It proves nothing - other than that people believe and write about myths
Proof varies for each of us . . . but the acceptance of His existence for over 2000 years by multiple generations in various societies and cultures is compelling. It is especially so since He was a lowly carpenter in an unimportant Jewish backwater of the Roman Empire with NOTHING significant to His resume to give Him historical significance. The fact that so many legends presented the template in varied degrees of cognitive sophistication by ancient primitive "prophets" and "religions" and they culminated in His undeserved scourging and crucifixion in fulfillment on the most proximate of the prophesies (still fulfilled centuries and millennia after His death). It all seems so improbable and inexplicable for it to have achieved such multi-millennial traction in the psyches of so many over so many generations.
Most people thought, for far longer, that the earth was flat.
Oopsie.
An Argumentum Ad Numerum is a logical fallacy, BTW, as is an Argumentum Ad Antiquitatem.
The ONLY source for a historical jesus is the bible, an ancient manuscript proven wrong time and time again, both through simple sciences and also self-contradiction.
Writting was quite commons at the time he is alleged to have lived, yet there is no mention in Roman records, a people almost fanatical about record keeping, and nothing in Greek writings either, a people fanatic about writting in general. Nor is there anything in Arabic writtings or Hebrew writtings.
Most people thought, for far longer, that the earth was flat.
Oopsie.
An Argumentum Ad Numerum is a logical fallacy, BTW, as is an Argumentum Ad Antiquitatem.
The ONLY source for a historical jesus is the bible, an ancient manuscript proven wrong time and time again, both through simple sciences and also self-contradiction.
Writting was quite commons at the time he is alleged to have lived, yet there is no mention in Roman records, a people almost fanatical about record keeping, and nothing in Greek writings either, a people fanatic about writting in general. Nor is there anything in Arabic writtings or Hebrew writtings.
Nothing.
He was a complete nobody in a remote Jewish backwater of the Roman Empire. He was nobody of any significance to write about . . . and your allusion to writing being very common is simply false. It was primarily reserved for important things. There was no widespread publication of Rod Serling-like creative output in ancient times. Your use of the logical fallacies is completely inappropriate for matters of historical validity. They are only useful for questions of empirical validity. You need not accept the proof I find more than adequate. Besides in spiritual matters, it is the spiritual validity of Jesus's existence that matters . . . not the historical or anthropological validity. There is NO QUESTION that Jesus existed and exists spiritually.
He was a complete nobody in a remote Jewish backwater of the Roman Empire. He was nobody of any significance to write about . . . and your allusion to writing being very common is simply false. It was primarily reserved for important things. There was no widespread publication of Rod Serling-like creative output in ancient times. Your use of the logical fallacies is completely inappropriate for matters of historical validity. They are only useful for questions of empirical validity. You need not accept the proof I find more than adequate. Besides in spiritual matters, it is the spiritual validity of Jesus's existence that matters . . . not the historical or anthropological validity. There is NO QUESTION that Jesus existed and exists spiritually.
1. There is no "historical validity" whatsoever.
2. Romans kept records on their prisoners and who they executed.
3. With the "miracles" and sermons attributed to Christ, he was far from the non-entitity you describe. His "miracles" would've spread like wildfire through the ancient world.
4. I suggest some research on your part into the veritable cornucopia of historians and other writers of the ancient era.
5. When there is an entire religion devoted to pushing their religion on everyone else, there had better be some basic PROOF of said personage the relgiion is cnetered on.
6. Again, there is NO valid evidence for Christ to begin with.
2. Romans kept records on their prisoners and who they executed.
3. With the "miracles" and sermons attributed to Christ, he was far from the non-entitity you describe. His "miracles" would've spread like wildfire through the ancient world.
4. I suggest some research on your part into the veritable cornucopia of historians and other writers of the ancient era.
5. When there is an entire religion devoted to pushing their religion on everyone else, there had better be some basic PROOF of said personage the relgiion is cnetered on.
6. Again, there is NO valid evidence for Christ to begin with.
Denial, especially for personal psychological reasons, is far too powerful to ever be overcome . . . even by overwhelming evidence. So I consider it a waste of time to confront your massive denial of a fairly obvious reality (Jesus) that has encompassed over 2000 years of human existence. I have THOROUGHLY studied the extant ancient writings and legends, etc. in my search of the "spiritual fossil record" of humankind. So we will simply have to agree to disagree.
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