Did Jesus Leave Any Writings That He Wrote Himself? (Biblical, God, Christian)
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Exactly how would you go about proving a negative?
Oh, that's right! You believe you have "proof" of this non-existent entity.
You're the one making wild, stupid arguments. We have an entire New Testament of the Bible, historical records indicating a rapid growth of a church that worships him, his followers willingly dying martyr's deaths, etc. But hey...you're bound and determined that you are right in that he never existed. So prove it. Let's see what your reasoning is for making such a stupid statement.
I can at least understand, pastor, why you believe that, although Jesus appears to have left no writings of his own, the New testament sets out pretty well what he said and did and the old testament prophecys his doings and divine mission.
However, after several years of debates on this and other forums, the Bible, New testament and old are so open to question that they cannot be taken as anything like good support for such claims - to anyone not already convinced of them.
The creation and Flood are myth, Exodus now looks quite unhistorical and the 'conquest' begins to look equally so. The Israelites evolved on - site -like Rome did in Italy - and not until around the start of the 1st mll.BC.
The predictions of Tyre and Babylon are demonstrably retrospective and so is Daniel. datable to a specific year(in the 300's BC), too. The prophecies of Jesus are also retrospective.
A read of them in context will show that they do not look like they relate to Jesus in context and sometimes deny it. There is one (as I recall) supposedly relating to Jesus on the cross which says that he is a sinful man, no better than a worm. Jesus did not quote Psalms on the cross, nor was he called 'Emmanuel' of course. The Nativity is historically impossible, the massacre of Innocents unhistorical (on all evidence) the prophecies of Judas' death horribly mangled to try to make them fit, and the the resurrection accounts so discrepant that they cannot be credited as reliable report.
Acts is no better. Not only does Luke get his history of the Revolts of Judas the Galilean and Theudas back to front and disagree with the other gospels that the disciples went back to Galilee - and alters the Bible so as to make that work, but he is unreliable about Paul's conversion - Paul does not hint of it - and he LIES about the escape from Damascus: Paul says it was to escape the Nabatean general whereas Luke (Acts) claims that it was to escape a Jewish plot to kill him.
Paul himself in his fiddling of Bible text, snarling at the 'super- apostles' and the mendacious self - justifications (in the letters that aren't considered forgeries anyway) does not make his invention of Gentile -friendly Christianity a very reliable product.
Now, I am not so naive that I suppose that you are going to say : 'Coo, I didn't realize..' Believers don't. They first deny that there are any contradictions, those proved, they are dismissed as irrelevant (I have to mention the staggering dismissal by one Christian poster of John's failure to mention the transfiguration as not really very important ) and we should look at the 'Big Picture' and put any errors down to the men who transcribed God's inspired word.
The errors shown to be of such magnitude that the Bible really cannot be taken as reliable testimony of anything, much, we end up with the 'Just have faith', 'No morals without it' and 'We need it, true or not' argument. And of course the 'Millions would not die for a Lie' argument. They die for Islam (which you don't believe in).
That doesn't matter. I know that one can't convince a believer; they can only convince themselves by facing up to Doubt instead of ignoring it through Faith.
What matters is that your assertion, Vizio, that the Bible itself is adequate testimony to Jesus (as Christ -figure) as if he wrote the thing himself does not stand up. The Bible is a crock - New and old Testament.
The only time that was recorded that Jesus apart from the preaching and teaching He had , was that He had a message and sent that message for to be relayed to others for them and the world , which could have being wrote down for accuracy was in the bible from Luke 7: 22-23....Jesus said ```Go your way and tell John what things you have seen and heard, how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. and blessed is he , who so ever will not be offended in me ``...... See Jesus sent this Epistle of Jesus to John the Baptist.....
The only time that was recorded that Jesus apart from the preaching and teaching He had , was that He had a message and sent that message for to be relayed to others for them and the world , which could have being wrote down for accuracy was in the bible from Luke 7: 22-23....Jesus said ```Go your way and tell John what things you have seen and heard, how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. and blessed is he , who so ever will not be offended in me ``...... See Jesus sent this Epistle of Jesus to John the Baptist.....
Not exactly something he wrote himself,but let that pass. The question is whether Jesus ever said it. Look at the circumstances. John after all that grovelling at the Jordan apparently becomes so doubtful that he sends a couple of messengers who were apparently allowed into Herod's jail to chat with him to ask Jesus whether he was was 'the one'. Off the top of my head, Only Luke and Matthew have this episode and what is common to just Luke and Matthew is generally dubious. I'll have a look a bit further,but the bottom line is that, those are no words of Jesus but what is effectively hammering home that John was sent to announce the coming of the Messiah. This is the message that the earlier part of the gospels keep bangingon about - that John was the herald of Jesus the messiah, the recognizer of Jesus the messiah, the one who sends his disciples to follow Jesus, the messiah, the one who testifies that Jesus is the messiah, is less than jJsus, not worthy, must diminish while Jesus increases.
Is it not clear that John's mission was also Messianic and there was an ongoing dispute between the followers of John and the followers of Jesus (both of whom were arrested and executed, so neither can say they did better than the other) as to which one was really the messiah.
The Gospels are a polemic document designed to argue a number of things, one of which is that Jesus was the messiah and John, while a great and even Holy man, was only sent to blow his trumpet to announce the entry stage left of Jesus, wearing a crown.
P.s Yes, compare Luke 7 and Matthew 11. Common text ('Q' material, I don't doubt) with reworking, and Luke omits the stuff in Matthew 11.12-15,though he (supposedly) records accurately every other word as Matthew has it, but not a hint of 12- 15. The reason is because Matthew added that himself. Note also that Luke doesn't actually say that John was in prison at the time but of course,he must have been. Matthew blandly says that John's disciples could wander in and out of Antipas' cells at Macheras or the Tiberias palace but Luke probably sees that as doubtful and just skips over it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-23-2013 at 07:23 AM..
You're the one making wild, stupid arguments. We have an entire New Testament of the Bible, historical records indicating a rapid growth of a church that worships him, his followers willingly dying martyr's deaths, etc. But hey...you're bound and determined that you are right in that he never existed. So prove it. Let's see what your reasoning is for making such a stupid statement.
Actually, you have an entire book written about this alleged character with attributes credited to him that have never been proven or reported in the first person.
You buy into all the PR presented in this cause to fool the people of the world and gain dominance over them.
So you prove, with actual verifiable evidence of such a being. No second hand "evidence" or reports of alleged acts from centuries later by those who were not there is acceptable.
Believing such "evidence" is by your own statement stupid.
If you wish to continue to believe an obvious fabrication, it is inherent upon you to provide proof of your beliefs. Proof of the opposite is is provided by the mere lack of actual evidence to support it.
Remember, your interpretation of fairy tales does not make them facts.
Actually, you have an entire book written about this alleged character with attributes credited to him that have never been proven or reported in the first person.
Actually...it's 66 books. And I have no reason to doubt that the 66 books have been forged.
Quote:
You buy into all the PR presented in this cause to fool the people of the world and gain dominance over them.
So you prove, with actual verifiable evidence of such a being. No second hand "evidence" or reports of alleged acts from centuries later by those who were not there is acceptable.
Believing such "evidence" is by your own statement stupid.
If you wish to continue to believe an obvious fabrication, it is inherent upon you to provide proof of your beliefs. Proof of the opposite is is provided by the mere lack of actual evidence to support it.
Remember, your interpretation of fairy tales does not make them facts.
I mentioned several things in my post above you have yet to even touch. You have no comment for them?
Did Jesus Leave Any Writings That He Wrote Himself?
He isn't the only one who didn't write about Jesus.
For this miracle-working rabble rouser to have created all the stir the christian holy books claim, there sure is a lack of mention of all that activity in the contemporary writings of:
the Romans
Egyptians
Greeks
Jews
And some of them were pretty meticulous about records.
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) and we should look at the 'Big Picture' and put any errors down to the men who transcribed God's inspired word. 
Did Jesus Leave Any Writings That He Wrote Himself?
