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On a more progressive point I would say to you Ulsterman that you are so right about the leader of the Traditional Voice. He is a fully honest and 100% correct person. He has to sit there beside a man like that SF politician who was all for gunning people and why so many people of the same religious background can be so into that corner is ultra-hypocritical. Jim Allister the TUV Leader is a brilliant and very direct Unionist and well done to him.
Very True RJ I don't know how the party will do come an election but they deserve support if only for Jim Allister alone.
Came across an article in which an Irish nationalist sees the difference between loyalists and nationalists...
He ( Fitt ) told the House of Lords in April 1996 that....The Protestant people in Northern Ireland - the loyalists - do not vote for gunmen. The whole history of Northern Ireland shows that the loyalist population does not vote for murderers or converted criminals. I am sorry to have to say this, but it is not the same of the nationalist population. Time and time again, the nationalist population has voted for released terrorists, whether or not they have been murderers. It votes for people who have been sentenced for terrorist or criminal acts. The Protestant population does not do that.
Now that is an interesting mention of the late Lord Fitt (imagine that Republican happy to be knighted!) who sometimes had to watch his own security from his side of the Province (!). It is a head shaking sad fact of life that unlike the Protestant Unionist tradition far too many people who are RC are behind a terror corner like the SF. We are on the same side over what I said about the tricolour and how so many from one side who think it so great want to kick the Unionist side in the bin. They forget what originally the flag was designed for even though Unionists did not want to separate from Gt Britain.
It has been too long since my last visit to the Province and as I have a project on it re railways must try to get back over.
The Ulster plantations were supposed to be made by northern English and Lowlanders from Scotland. To call all of their descendants English is simplistic. It's just something to think about.
Among the planter population I think lowland Scots were much more numerous than northern English, as evidenced by the stronger ties today between Belfast and Glasgow/Edinburgh than say Newcastle/Sunderland. Ties to Manchester came at a much later stage.
For that reason, in the US, the descendents of the planters are referred to as Scots-Irish, presumably to distinguish them from non Scots-Irish, English, Japanese, Nigerians etc. Someone in the US, and originally from N.I. as opposed to having ancestors from N.I. could be either Irish-American, or Scots-Irish-American,
or just American.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeMilligan's Alter Ego
Among the planter population I think lowland Scots were much more numerous than northern English, as evidenced by the stronger ties today between Belfast and Glasgow/Edinburgh than say Newcastle/Sunderland. Ties to Manchester came at a much later stage.
For that reason, in the US, the descendents of the planters are referred to as Scots-Irish, presumably to distinguish them from non Scots-Irish, English, Japanese, Nigerians etc. Someone in the US, and originally from N.I. as opposed to having ancestors from N.I. could be either Irish-American, or Scots-Irish-American,
or just American.
As a descendant of several families who came to the colonies from Ulster Province, one of my grandfathers told me that we came from the Scotch-Irish. Historically, that was the name that stuck. It's been changed up in more recent years, so in the US the name can now be Scotch-Irish, Ulster Scots, or Scots-Irish. Ulsterman has a long-running thread on the history board.
As a descendant of several families who came to the colonies from Ulster Province, one of my grandfathers told me that we came from the Scotch-Irish. Historically, that was the name that stuck. It's been changed up in more recent years, so in the US the name can now be Scotch-Irish, Ulster Scots, or Scots-Irish. Ulsterman has a long-running thread on the history board.
Most people just say Ulster. I've never heard people use Ulster province. I've just noticed you use Ulster Province consistently. It's not common usage.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie20
Most people just say Ulster. I've never heard people use Ulster province. I've just noticed you use Ulster Province consistently. It's not common usage.
I use Ulster Province in the historic context. Look it up.
Among the planter population I think lowland Scots were much more numerous than northern English, as evidenced by the stronger ties today between Belfast and Glasgow/Edinburgh than say Newcastle/Sunderland. Ties to Manchester came at a much later stage.
For that reason, in the US, the descendents of the planters are referred to as Scots-Irish, presumably to distinguish them from non Scots-Irish, English, Japanese, Nigerians etc. Someone in the US, and originally from N.I. as opposed to having ancestors from N.I. could be either Irish-American, or Scots-Irish-American,
or just American.
On their arrival in America they were called Irish by those dealing with them as they got off the ship. They strongly objected to this and continued to do so but over time they give way and accepted Scotch-Irish. I would say that most (if not all) the arrivals came from Ulster.
Among the planter population I think lowland Scots were much more numerous than northern English, as evidenced by the stronger ties today between Belfast and Glasgow/Edinburgh than say Newcastle/Sunderland. Ties to Manchester came at a much later stage.
For that reason, in the US, the descendents of the planters are referred to as Scots-Irish, presumably to distinguish them from non Scots-Irish, English, Japanese, Nigerians etc. Someone in the US, and originally from N.I. as opposed to having ancestors from N.I. could be either Irish-American, or Scots-Irish-American,
or just American.
Before America and in America
The popular image of the Ulster Protestant portrayed by most of the world's press and television and by the authors of instant studies of the Irish questionn is that of a red-faced man, his features contorted, beating a large drum. This simple visual cliche has been used repeatedly to convey violence, intransigence and bigotry, neat labels under which, in the high speed information world today, a busy journalist can package an entire people. Each television documentary or book on the Ulster troubles offers a history of the so-called native or Catholic Irish but usually nothing on the background of the Protestant people. It is almost as if they were destitute of features, emotions or even intelligent life, without existence in time, a monolith whose only purpose is to be the granite against which the nationalist aspirations of an Irish people are dashed.
The ancestors of the Protestant population of Ulster arrived there in a series of immigrations during the seventeenth century, coming from the Scottish Lowlands and Borders and to a lesser extent from various parts of England, as far apart as Lancashire, Norfolk and Devon. Within a hundred years they had transformed the north of Ireland from a land composed largely of woods and swamps, interspersed with small areas of modest cultivation, into a province with roads, market towns and ports, supported by an increasingly stable system of farming , a thriving cattle trade and a domestic textile industry. Into a country where Catholic medieval values and an indolent pastoral economy pervaded, they brought Calvinistic Protestantism and a stern work ethic.
Although they came into what was an English colony and many of them were originally part of the official settlement of Ulster by the English Crown, the Scots so predominated in numbers, in the toughness of their culture and in the determination with which they acquired land, that the whole Plantation enterprise took on Scottish characteristics and the name ' Ulster Scots ' came in time to be applied to the entire non-Irish population of the Province which included large numbers of English, much smaller numbers of Welsh and some refugee French Protestants. In America the term ' Scotch Irish ', which had originally been used by Ulster students training for the Presbyterian ministry at Scottish universities, was applied to the Protestant immigrants from Ulster to distinguish them from the Catholic Irish who arrived later.
From the early years of the eighteenth century, thousands of Ulster Scots emigrated to the Colonies of British North America, first to New England and then in much larger numbers to Pennsylvania. From thence they went southwards though the Great Valley, east of the Applachian Mountains, into the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and on to the Piedmont of North and South Carolina. Within three generations the line of the Appalachian range, from New England to Georgia was dotted with settlements of Ulster origin.
This was the beginning of the American Old West and the Scots-Irish people provided most of its pioneers, the archetypal frontiersman, Davy Crockett, was the son of an immigrant from Co Londonderry. They also left in the Appalachian region a rich heritage of material culture - the masonry skills of the Ulster Scot can be traced from the bawns or defensive walls of Plantation Ulster to the stone houses of Kentucky - a story-telling tradition and a legacy of music and dance which was the basis of Appalachian mountain culture.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulsterman
Before America and in America
The popular image of the Ulster Protestant portrayed by most of the world's press and television and by the authors of instant studies of the Irish questionn is that of a red-faced man, his features contorted, beating a large drum. This simple visual cliche has been used repeatedly to convey violence, intransigence and bigotry, neat labels under which, in the high speed information world today, a busy journalist can package an entire people. Each television documentary or book on the Ulster troubles offers a history of the so-called native or Catholic Irish but usually nothing on the background of the Protestant people. It is almost as if they were destitute of features, emotions or even intelligent life, without existence in time, a monolith whose only purpose is to be the granite against which the nationalist aspirations of an Irish people are dashed.
The ancestors of the Protestant population of Ulster arrived there in a series of immigrations during the seventeenth century, coming from the Scottish Lowlands and Borders and to a lesser extent from various parts of England, as far apart as Lancashire, Norfolk and Devon. Within a hundred years they had transformed the north of Ireland from a land composed largely of woods and swamps, interspersed with small areas of modest cultivation, into a province with roads, market towns and ports, supported by an increasingly stable system of farming , a thriving cattle trade and a domestic textile industry. Into a country where Catholic medieval values and an indolent pastoral economy pervaded, they brought Calvinistic Protestantism and a stern work ethic.
Although they came into what was an English colony and many of them were originally part of the official settlement of Ulster by the English Crown, the Scots so predominated in numbers, in the toughness of their culture and in the determination with which they acquired land, that the whole Plantation enterprise took on Scottish characteristics and the name ' Ulster Scots ' came in time to be applied to the entire non-Irish population of the Province which included large numbers of English, much smaller numbers of Welsh and some refugee French Protestants. In America the term ' Scotch Irish ', which had originally been used by Ulster students training for the Presbyterian ministry at Scottish universities, was applied to the Protestant immigrants from Ulster to distinguish them from the Catholic Irish who arrived later.
From the early years of the eighteenth century, thousands of Ulster Scots emigrated to the Colonies of British North America, first to New England and then in much larger numbers to Pennsylvania. From thence they went southwards though the Great Valley, east of the Applachian Mountains, into the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and on to the Piedmont of North and South Carolina. Within three generations the line of the Appalachian range, from New England to Georgia was dotted with settlements of Ulster origin.
This was the beginning of the American Old West and the Scots-Irish people provided most of its pioneers, the archetypal frontiersman, Davy Crockett, was the son of an immigrant from Co Londonderry. They also left in the Appalachian region a rich heritage of material culture - the masonry skills of the Ulster Scot can be traced from the bawns or defensive walls of Plantation Ulster to the stone houses of Kentucky - a story-telling tradition and a legacy of music and dance which was the basis of Appalachian mountain culture.
Excellent synopsis, Ulsterman.
By far, the majority of the Scotch-Irish came, through the port of Philadelphia and secondarily, Wilmington.
Historically, the Quakers who arrived in colonial Philadelphia and West Jersey/southern New Jersey have been called Irish Quakers. Some, at least came from Ulster Province.
Both Quakers and people from Ulster had tried to immigrate to Massachusetts, but were driven out by the Puritans. Some went to Rhode Island, some went back to England and some from both groups went to William Penn's settlement.
Most of the push south was on the Great Philadelphia Wagon Road, which eventually went as far south as a Quaker settlement called Wrightsborough/Wrightsboro, in northern Georgia.
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