Northern Ireland reunification with Republic of Ireland (masonry, granite)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Cause that's what it was...a defensive organization. They were not an army prepared to go to war. Yes, there were a few who took the law into their own hands but the vast majority stuck to the rules.
I meant to make a comment on this part of your reply to me. I suspect we sometimes use our own reference points and terms, you of course from NI, and myself from the USA.
Over here across the pond, our "defensive" organizations are not armed with offensive weapons, just defensive ones.
So an organization like the Guardian Angels for example are authorized to help prevent crime as a community peace keeping force, but they cannot carry offensive weapons.
That is part of what helped make them a trustworthy organization with support from most all of citizens. They could only use defensive tactics and non lethal restraint, and were prohibited from carrying guns, knives and the like.
The UDR on the other hand was an infantry regiment of the British Army armed with machine guns as their most potent of weapons. So despite their name having the word defensive in it, they were hardly a defensive force in NI.
I think exactly the same way regarding all sectarian marches, especially those going through sections of town that will continue to pick at old wounds.
Though we both know Unionists march much more often, I do not think the Nationalists should be doing it either. If the ones holding up the poster were to march themselves for Nationalist causes, then they are total hypocrites and should be called so.
This is not a unique thought process, and I apply it to the "marches" here in America designed not to celebrate, but to foment hate.
For example, if the KKK wants to have a march, rally and publicly speak, I say more power to them. However their presumed purpose is to recruit new like-minded members to their racist cause. Here in America we protect freedom of speech, and it is enshrined in our governing document.
However, I draw the line when the KKK wants to parade through predominately Jewish or black sections of town.
The reason is obvious, because they are not looking to spread their hateful ideology among the residents, they are doing it to anger them.
Now before you get upset assuming I am comparing a known hate group with the Orange Order, rest assured I am not directly comparing the two groups.
That said, we both know the bonfires (with "kill all Taigs" type signs) and the like are hateful messaging.
You are not a knuckle dragger, so don't play dumb to how many people in the Nationalist community are offended on a regular basis about the aforementioned.
Do you really think the chances for peace between the green and orange tribes are likely when sectarian marches, songs and burning bonfires occur on a yearly basis?
`
^
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie
Firstly can i say Ulsterman i came across that new item on the elderly lady in the nursing home and did a wee searxch and well done that band and the home arrangng that visit to her. Excellent.
Now to you Vector1!
You do go on about sectarian marches which is all very well resting in the would-be liberal mind set clustering everyone as if are somehow automatically terrible. If and organisation os identifying itself in a lawful and decent way like the 12th July then good for them. They include everyday decent folk, ministers of religion, politicians and s on and not terror operatives. Lumping them into the same corner as the SF tribe is awful and not somehow balanced. Couple of Saturdays ago I was out on one of the four big Boyne celebration marches in Scotland (the one in my city). A great day, lovely weather and a crowd watching the colour and music. Parades hef in part of England as well as Ghana and Togo oh and Canada. Of course your own land is hardly a beacon of anywhere near balanced perfection so not strong baise there for a balanced and that would-be liberal stance!
This is the other post I referenced where you took my words and exaggerated/twisted them.
I never once "lumped them in with the SF tribe" as you said. Undoubtedly there are many decent folks who celebrate the 12th along with some of the many marches and the like on the orange side.
Even the article of the elderly woman Ulsterman posted, who hearkened back to her childhood and love of the aforementioned is an example.
That of course was not my point.
Rather is was to point out how the previous parade/marching route (which would still be the same today if the OO had their way), was intentionally divisive. Though I was very clear saying I did not compare the OO to the KKK, I did use that comparative analogy as something I did not approve of in America, even though we have protection of free speech here in the good old USA.
Yet the OO and their brethren fought tooth & nail to continue marching into the Nationalist areas as some sort of "right" of theirs.
I do not see any reasoned person making such an argument that can hold water.
Do you?
It's a well known rebel song.
It was probably sung at the girls to try and antagonize them as they correctly determined they are from the other tribe.
You are undoubtedly right on that score.
I just do not understand how civil and decent people can take their anger/vitriol our on young school aged children.
I might dislike someone, but would never think to take it out on their kids.
Maybe NI needs some type of more strictly enforced law against targeting kids with such things. The kids who are abused or harassed are only going to harbor resentment toward anyone of the other tribe, and the cycle will continue to repeat itself in perpetuity.
No had not seen that programme Ulsterman and my thanks for intimating it. I happen to have a high regard for Jim Allister and what he said was direct, honest and so dashed right. He is so directly honest sitting next that terrible man who in the media is portrayed as being a balanced and reasonable! Well done the TUV Leader.
I must also add that Sir Jeffrey Donaldson was I would intimate a very noted and direct speaker at the Glasgow "12th" Boyne Parade. Did manage to get a wee passing chat with him as it happens! Anyway still think that programme you showed here just confirms the political nonsense that a terrorist allowed to hold office can be tolerated routinely on the media and the more honest and truthful style of Jim Allister is excellent. I dare say that Irish folk in the South like their flag whilst the terrorist from the Republican corner use that in a corner that snipes at Unionists and their traditions. Kind of makes a mockery of what the creators of that flag thought passingly decades ago what it was to be for to cover both sides. On a passing note I am overdue for getting a twenty foot flagpole erected in my front garden to compete against a Scot Nat further up the avenue and that lot steal the Saltire as if just theirs so time to do my bit.
KEEP ER LIT! RJ Aye, Jim was like a breath of fresh air amid all the usual stuff we get from politicians. This 'man' he was sitting beside was a murderer simple as that but he was voted for and that says a lot about those people who voted for him.
The republicans would gather at Ardoyne and attack the parade as it passed and yet they tell us that the orange in the Irish tricolour is there to represent the Protestant people. They live behind the shops which are on the main road but come out from where they live to get offended as the parade passes.
Ah-ha Vector1 you want unbias without looking in your mirror?! Anyway just to automatically always list the English re Ireland is not that balanced and we got a lot if Irish people up here just as down south England got.
Yes asking someone to not have a typical knee-jerk reaction is a reasonable request for certain questions.
The irony of course is you feel I am biased, yet the last few replies have been related to me being critical of the Nationalist team giving Unionist school girls a rough time.
How often have you posted about wrong doing from the orange tribe?
Remember if there is ever to be a cohesive life together (be it under the British or Irish government) they must find a way to put the hate and mistrust behind them, and be willing to call out their own side for wrongdoing.
As to mentioning English regarding Ireland, I didn't write the words to the song, did I. The songs lyrics are obviously looking back to historical issues.
Additionally why would you care if the term English is used, as I thought you are a Scotty?
Why is it the English and England itself seems like the only group or part of the UK now days that cannot be mentioned or have an identity
The song in question is using the term in a negative way, but that could be expected of an Irish rebel song.
Quote:
Anyway there is not a common sense idea that the song in question is passingly not bias when it includes a murderous bunch like the IRA.
So you consider the IRA of old the same as the Provos in more modern times
Quote:
Unfortunately the Irish eventual Republic was not able or capable of being a great place and was why they desperately in more modern times got into the EU to get the financial handouts. In time that improved their education, chances and modernisation but it does I am afraid confirm that they could not do it themselves from 1922.
I am wondering if you realize how condescending that sounds? The same attitude has been expressed toward other places England/Britain have colonized.
Surely some positive aspects of English law, civil society and other positive British attributes benefited people say in SA, India, etc.
Yet the way many of the native people were treated and discriminated against was appalling.
As Gandhi famously said to the Brits, "despite the best intentions of the best of you, you must in the nature of things, humiliate us to control us".
So yes, when Britain finally left most of Ireland a century ago, they were not as prepared to govern themsleves as many other countries have been under their own leadership. That does not mean they are an inferior people or some type of backward savages that needed British administration.
Quote:
You made a very concrete thing Ulsterman over the Orange Order in Canada and in WW1 they provided tens of thousands of soldiers. There were also in the Royal navy lodges on warships and here in west Scotland regiments that took their regalia with them. Just kind of sad that after 1922 in the southern Ireland area over 300 lodges had to close and today the remnant of around 50 still there! Something niggles my mind that about three years ago I came across mention that the driver of President Kennedy 's car when he was assassinated was an Orangeman in a US lodge (!).
What purpose does anyone think OO lodges in the RoI would serve, to lament many of their closings?
I meant to make a comment on this part of your reply to me. I suspect we sometimes use our own reference points and terms, you of course from NI, and myself from the USA.
Over here across the pond, our "defensive" organizations are not armed with offensive weapons, just defensive ones.
So an organization like the Guardian Angels for example are authorized to help prevent crime as a community peace keeping force, but they cannot carry offensive weapons.
That is part of what helped make them a trustworthy organization with support from most all of citizens. They could only use defensive tactics and non lethal restraint, and were prohibited from carrying guns, knives and the like.
The UDR on the other hand was an infantry regiment of the British Army armed with machine guns as their most potent of weapons. So despite their name having the word defensive in it, they were hardly a defensive force in NI.
`
As usual your talking up the left. They were defensive and they were more like night watchmen than an army. They wern't allowed to go on the offensive and carry the fight to the terrorists. Of course a few could take it no longer and against the rules went on the offensive. BTW when did they use these machine guns you speak of? How many people were mown down by them. ?
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
. . .As to mentioning English regarding Ireland, I didn't write the words to the song, did I. The songs lyrics are obviously looking back to historical issues.
Additionally why would you care if the term English is used, as I thought you are a Scotty?
Why is it the English and England itself seems like the only group or part of the UK now days that cannot be mentioned or have an identity
I am wondering if you realize how condescending that sounds? The same attitude has been expressed toward other places England/Britain have colonized.
Surely some positive aspects of English law, civil society and other positive British attributes benefited people say in SA, India, etc.
Yet the way many of the native people were treated and discriminated against was appalling.
As Gandhi famously said to the Brits, "despite the best intentions of the best of you, you must in the nature of things, humiliate us to control us".
Has it occurred to you that English could refer to people who speak English as their native language? The Amish in Pennsylvania refer to all people in the area as "the English", regardless of the national origin of the person's ancestry, if they speak English. I don't know if that's the case in Northern Ireland, but it's where my mind goes, in answer to your question.
Has it occurred to you that English could refer to people who speak English as their native language? The Amish in Pennsylvania refer to all people in the area as "the English", regardless of the national origin of the person's ancestry, if they speak English. I don't know if that's the case in Northern Ireland, but it's where my mind goes, in answer to your question.
Southbound, the Irish (just as in the song) want to specify the English as the boogeyman in some of the literature, song, etc.
So when the lyrics in that song say " And those loving English feet they tramped all over us " it was specific, because it had no rhyme or reason other than the historical grievance.
Clearly most people in the RoI and NI speak the english language, but that is not what the Irish rebel songs are referencing.
How can one forget this scene from Braveheart;
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
Southbound, the Irish (just as in the song) want to specify the English as the boogeyman in some of the literature, song, etc.
So when the lyrics in that song say " And those loving English feet they tramped all over us " it was specific, because it had no rhyme or reason other than the historical grievance.
Clearly most people in the RoI and NI speak the english language, but that is not what the Irish rebel songs are referencing.
How can one forget this scene from Braveheart;
Like I said, it was just a thought. The Amish speak English as well as a 18th century Germanic dialect. If you saw the movie Witness, you saw the Amish grandfather call all people who were not Amish English. It's that way in real life.
The Ulster plantations were supposed to be made by northern English and Lowlanders from Scotland. To call all of their descendants English is simplistic. It's just something to think about.
How the deuce can I be condescending Vector1? May I remind you as you are giving the impression you do not know hard modern history facts.
Southern Ireland got independence in 1922 after that damn civil war that killed more than we were blamed for before that. Secondly, Ireland in 1922 was NOT a financially okay country had no great industry and situations that others had. Mostly rural and generally not very well off. It remained like that right through the twenties, thirties continuing after the 2nd World War getting nowhere (also during a time when the RC Church pulled the strings by the way). So for decades it was not capable of improving until the chance of getting into the EU and like small countries get the hand outs. Oh and surprise, surprise the Dublin Government sent condolences to Germany finding that Hitler was dead! The Irish Republic has much improved and that it got somewhere was due to the charity of the EU getting it ou of the incapability of getting on itself. That the wee places in the EU get places is due to the bigger fiancial members like us is generous. Gt Britain has also kindly loaned Ireland money.
When I point out the negatives of such things like that song and the traditions represented you crawl around coming up with that silly thing about Orange tribes. May I remind that the IRA name change after name change was an evil, murderous and automatically life changing. The OO was not and is not a terrorist organisation. Amusing that someone like yourself from a country with a not too honest and decent history is being so slightly trying to be fairly balanced!
On a more progressive point I would say to you Ulsterman that you are so right about the leader of the Traditional Voice. He is a fully honest and 100% correct person. He has to sit there beside a man like that SF politician who was all for gunning people and why so many people of the same religious background can be so into that corner is ultra-hypocritical. Jim Allister the TUV Leader is a brilliant and very direct Unionist and well done to him.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
KEEP ER LIT! RJ Aye, Jim was like a breath of fresh air amid all the usual stuff we get from politicians. This 'man' he was sitting beside was a murderer simple as that but he was voted for and that says a lot about those people who voted for him. 
