Why can't this forum agree what subtropical means? (snow, temperature, cities)

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by Infamous92

But that would mean "subtropical" is more of a characteristic of specific "almost tropical" locations as opposed to being its own climate type. I don't think the tiny "almost tropical" zone is deserving of its own classification, unless the same is done for all of the other climate classifications, but that's just my opinion.

Indeed & it is. And the 'almost tropical' area isn't tiny, it would just mean a smaller area than what is now classed as sub-tropical, which includes many mnay areas which clearly are not

Originally Posted by Infamous92

It is though.

Yeah right!

Originally Posted by Infamous92

But
It isn't just Koppen, many of the northern subtropical cities (under Koppen's system), like DC and NYC, are still borderline subtropical under Trewartha's classifications, I guess that system is flawed as well, lol.

Yes, if it classes DC & NYC as sub-tropical or even borderline sub-tropical then it is very clearly flawed What is wrong with classing places with hot summers & cold winters, such as DC & NYC, as continental? Is it because the winters are not quite cold enough? What about sub-continental, would that be better?

[mar89]

I propose you my personal rule to define a true subtropical climate: at least 6 months >18°C (a tropical climate requires 12 months >18°C according to Koppen).

- New Orleans, Tallahassee, Charleston, Sao Paulo, Okinawa, Kyoto, Hong Kong, Rhodes, Perth, Malaga are subtropical.
- Washington DC, Philadelphia, Milan, New York, Venice, Florence, Atlanta are not.

In Italy, only Sicily and a few coastal areas of southern regions would be full subtropical (even it's Csa).
Climates with 6 months >18°C always have very long summers, they're located around a latitude of 25-35° and they generally have a mild winter.
How do you think about this classification?

[Infamous92]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

Indeed & it is. And the 'almost tropical' area isn't tiny, it would just mean a smaller area than what is now classed as sub-tropical, which includes many mnay areas which clearly are not

It would be extremely tiny based on some of the definitions of subtropical I've seen around here. But it would ultimately depend on what one deems subtropical, would the classification be restricted to climates like Brisbane and Tampa? Or would it include climates like Sochi and Virginia Beach as well?

Yes, if it classes DC & NYC as sub-tropical or even borderline sub-tropical then it is very clearly flawed

I have to disagree with you here. Even if you think it works for 99.999% of the world, would you declare a system flawed if DC/NYC came close to anything "subtropical"? Lol.

What is wrong with classing places with hot summers & cold winters, such as DC & NYC, as continental? Is it because the winters are not quite cold enough? What about sub-continental, would that be better?

What exactly is "continental" though? Is it really even a climate type? Dallas is more subtropical than NYC, but is NYC, with nearly 90% of its land on islands in the Atlantic, really more continental than Dallas, a landlocked city in northeast Texas?

Can subtropical climates (and other climates) be continental or oceanic as well? Is Bermuda subtropical and oceanic? Or just subtropical?

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by Infamous92

It would be extremely tiny based on some of the definitions of subtropical I've seen around here. But it would ultimately depend on what one deems subtropical, would the classification be restricted to climates like Brisbane and Tampa? Or would it include climates like Sochi and Virginia Beach as well?

No, places don't have to be 70F+ during the winter months, just not cold. To me it seems absurd to call somewhere that has average minimum temperatures below freezing sub-tropical, yes they can have the odd cold snap, but not averages below freezing...

Originally Posted by Infamous92

I have to disagree with you here. Even if you think it works for 99.999% of the world, would you declare a system flawed if DC/NYC came close to anything "subtropical"? Lol.

I don't think the Koppen system works for anywhere near 99.999% of the world! Infact there are many cases where it is flawed... For example under Koppen the UK (including all of Scotland) has the same climate as Sydney!

Originally Posted by Infamous92

What exactly is "continental" though? Is it really even a climate type? Dallas is more subtropical than NYC, but is NYC, with nearly 90% of its land on islands in the Atlantic, really more continental than Dallas, a landlocked city in northeast Texas?

Can subtropical climates (and other climates) be continental or oceanic as well? Is Bermuda subtropical and oceanic? Or just subtropical?

I think you know what a continental climate is, hot summers, with cold winters... All I'm saying is it is silly to lump so many places with hugely different climates into the same boat. Why can an extra definition not be added? Instead of just 'Temperate Oceanic' for the UK AND Sydney, why can the UK not be 'Cool Temperate Oceanic' & Sydney 'Warm Temperate Oceanic' It makes far more sense to me & clearly shows that the climates are different...

[Infamous92]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

No, places don't have to be 70F+ during the winter months, just not cold. To me it seems absurd to call somewhere that has average minimum temperatures below freezing sub-tropical, yes they can have the odd cold snap, but not averages below freezing...

That's fair.

I just don't see the significance of a climate having average lows below freezing though, it seems arbitrary, does anything significant happen at that point?

I don't think the Koppen system works for anywhere near 99.999% of the world! Infact there are many cases where it is flawed... For example under Koppen the UK (including all of Scotland) has the same climate as Sydney!

I didn't mention Koppen lol. I said, if there was a system that was pretty much perfect, would you dismiss it as flawed if climates like DC/NYC came anywhere near subtropical. It was a joke.

I think you know what a continental climate is, hot summers, with cold winters...

I know what the term "continental" is generally associated with, but I don't think it should have anything to with temperatures. It's more of a geographic/climatic characteristic than anything else. Dallas has continental influence, Bermuda has oceanic influence, yet both feature the same humid subtropical climate.

All I'm saying is it is silly to lump so many places with hugely different climates into the same boat. Why can an extra definition not be added? Instead of just 'Temperate Oceanic' for the UK AND Sydney, why can the UK not be 'Cool Temperate Oceanic' & Sydney 'Warm Temperate Oceanic' It makes far more sense to me & clearly shows that the climates are different...

I fully agree, I think the current climate classifications are a little too broad and should be divided into subtypes wherever it's necessary.

But my thinking about the whole subtropical/continental debate is based on the current classifications. It doesn't make sense to lump Washington, DC in with likes of Minneapolis, when it has much more in common with places like Atlanta. I also don't like the idea of making any of the current climate classifications larger, they should be getting smaller, in my opinion.

[Humid Subtropical]

Another subtropical thread?

Boke.

[pdw]

Originally Posted by Humid Subtropical

Another subtropical thread?

Boke.

Cut me some slack, it's not like I'm a reg on anything.

[Ariete]

I don't really care as long as everybody agrees that the Köppen classification is severely outdated.

[Joe90]

Even though Oceanic and Continental get included in the discussion, it's really only a matter of whether climates are subtropical or temperate.

Subtropical relates to climates between the two tropics, where the sun angle at any time of the year, is the main factor of that climate.

Temperate is a very broad term, that basically means that neither the heat of the tropics, or the cold of the polar regions dominate. Oceanic and Continental are both subsets of the temperate group,

Koppen muddied the waters, by giving a type of temperate zone climate, the subtropical label. He correctly identified that Cfa summers resemble aspects of tropical weather by having warm to hot temperatures and greater convectional rainfall. I think he did a poor job of putting that warm/hot summer into the context of the whole year overall, because the subtropical part of Cfa only relates to one season, and in some cases only a single month.

The -3C threshold is the worst aspect of Cfa to me, because it enshrines the notion, that a climate can be defined by a single season or month.

If Koppen hadn't used the term Subtropical to describe Cfa, this debate wouldn't happen.

[overdrive1979]

Originally Posted by mar89

In Italy, only Sicily and a few coastal areas of southern regions would be full subtropical (even it's Csa).
Climates with 6 months >18°C always have very long summers, they're located around a latitude of 25-35° and they generally have a mild winter.
How do you think about this classification?

Well, there are few areas of southern Europe who can be classed both subtropical and mediterranean Csa climates. However, these areas experience weak subtropical influences, compared to true subtropical climates.

Thus, almost mediterranean coast of Europe are not mediterranean sutropical, but mediterranean temperate.
Once you move inland, sutropical features dissapear entirely, even in such places like Malaga or Sicily.
The rainiest and cloudiest season there is late autumn or winter, which contribute to these climates to appear more temperate, instead of sunny winters of true subtropical climates like Florida.