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example: A school principal friend was visiting relatives in the EP when 9/11 hit...roads were blocked by fallen trees... the local citizens militia stopped him and family at the check point and told them to go back to the relatives...'that the nation was at war and no one was coming in and no one was going out... after two days the road was cleared and he returned to Mon. county...He said, "When they told me the nation was at war and had been attacked...I believed them."
Is that why so many people from the greater DC area bought houses at Canaan after 9-11.
Hmm, figured it was part of the reason but did not figure they wouldn't be able to get there cuz the local militia would stop them.
When the collapse happens we may not feel it first...the big metropolitian areas will.
We'll see . . said the Zen Master.
Those areas have a higher wage base than West Virginia to buffer some inflationary costs. At the moment, even with a lower wage base, the West Virginian (Virginee?) in Charleston has 20% more disposable income than other areas. Lower cost of living. You can double-check it with relocation websites. However, West Virginia can't support inflationary costs because it doesn't have the wage base to buffer to them.
Of course, the simple solution to that is, raise the wage base in West Virginia. Right.
Example : Price of oil was artificially inflated, and currently correcting, but after that, it will rise again, and we may well expect $200 barrel oil in the future. So . .
18 gallon x $4gal x 4.33wks per mth = $311.76 per month commute
$0 increase
18 gallon x $5gal x 4.33wks per mth = $389.70 per month commute
$77.94 increase
18 gallon x $6gal x 4.33wks per mth = $467.64 per month commute
$155.88 increase
18 gallon x $7gal x 4.33wks per mth = $545.58 per month commute
$311.76 increase
What's does the $77.94 matter between $4 and $5 gallon? Not much, 1 day of work at $10hr.
But take an inventory of the non-essential jobs in this country based on disposable income .. and you'll see it does matter. They start being removed from the employment picture, i.e., That $2 a day Starbucks habit disappears, thus Starbucks closes 600 stores across the country, and reduces staff across the board to compensate for that $77.94 the average American worker isn't spending any more in disposable income.
It's off-topic, but corporations who rely on disposable income, have a vested interest in Americans having it, so it's just beyond me why they aren't politically active and screaming that American's should have more money. Anyway, I know, not everybody commutes, but it's still inflationary. We get our milk from Ohio. So what's does the $155.88mth extra matter between $4 and $6 gallon, or $311.76mth extra matter between $4 and $7 gallon?
It's bad math.
I've maintained the dominos start tipping at $4 gallon in this country for the average worker, and you'll hear hear them fall $5, so you can draw your own conclusions about $6, then $7 gallon gas. And y'know what's even worst than this scenario? Is this might take years for oil to be at this cost, but if Israel or the US strikes Iran, it could be that high almost overnight.
In a long-worded short story . . that's why I see places like West Virginia hurting first. But you are right. It reverses when it's actually upon us, because here is a better situation having a rural environment as a resource.
The meltdown is national debt, insolvent social security, collapse of the dollar, peak oil syndrome, add drought (not to mention scary inter-species relationships between bees and moths). j/k What's not funny is, we can 50 to 100 million immigrants because both Presidential candidates are pro-amnesty, and then we're at 400 million people in this country with most of them competing for poverty level jobs.
If people actually looked at these problems and saw the writing on the wall, then wouldn't you think they'd treasure the earth of West Virginia as a future resource?
The latest price for our petrol (gas) over here is $15.00 per gallon..!!! It's a very sore topic of conversation. Owning a car is sooooo expensive here in the UK...
The latest price for our petrol (gas) over here is $15.00 per gallon..!!! It's a very sore topic of conversation. Owning a car is sooooo expensive here in the UK...
Yeah, in that comparison, we shouldn't be complaining, but the significant difference of Europe to Russia, is the complete disregard for mass transit in most of the United States. Do you know many cities in this country have mass transit beyond a bus service?
We've always had lower gas compared to Europe, and will eventually buckle under the increases in price. Urban sprawl in America is part of the problem, and it doesn't work unless gas is cheap. It's a pro-consumption design.
From outside the box it's odd really, because people "naturally" tend to live where their job is . . but in America, they sell the idea of "normal" in living as far away from your job as possible. People buy into it because they are sold on it, with little wonder, the sheer quantity of propaganda Americans are subject to is staggering.
Not going to make any friends with this observation, but there's some lurking in this forum who want to move to rural West Virginia for whatever reasons to be "away" from it all, then commute to a city center for employment. Are they bad people? No. Are they repeating that same template of consumption? Yes.
Example : (my old home town)
People who work in Orlando own homes in Clermont, and though google states the time as a 26 minutes drive, in reality, it's about an 1hr (unless nobody else is on the road). So these urban sprawl types are spending about 2hrs per day in their car . . roughly 1 tank of gas per week, right? from: clermont, fl to: orlando, fl - Google Maps
I'm old enough to remember the view from Citrus Tower in Clermont, when it was orange groves, almost as far as the eye could see. And now it looks like this. Picasa Web Albums - John - FDU Florida T...
I saw a lot of American before the destruction of urban sprawl and development in this low-level war against nature. Loss of sand dunes, mountains completely removed, forests older than Jerusalem gone, wetlands paved over, aquifers contaminated, toxic rivers and lakes, even the sea itself . . the very air we breathe. So I have an apprehension about further destruction happening here too, for a few reasons. Pro-consumption mentality adds to the problems to resolve in West Virginia.
We need to solve problems, instead of adding to them.
trev- I'm wrong and I know it. I have no patience to watch people flounder in historically known mistakes and tend to pull it out of their hands to show them how. Mea culpa. Be certain that it's not my expectations being imposed upon them, however, its their own aspirations crying out and I'm not patient about people venting if I get the impression it's a never ending excuse to not commit themselves to meaningful actions. I take that as a form of emotional manipulation and at worst get offended, at best detach myself entirely as if a clinician observing a lab rat. I watch locals tolerate it like water rolling off a ducks back. They're older and wiser? I'm learning, can't do better than that. If I were hiking into the woods in deer season with a fur coat on, I'd not be offended by someone grabbing my elbow saying 'hold on there missy'. Gratitude has prerequisites.
Buzz- Braggards? Oh no, humility reigns. Rural folk in most of America, as a result of being isolated by distances from limited resources, tend to crave more social situations & have stronger bonds with each other whereas city dwellers generally want the world off them when they close their front door. WV hollers everybody knows everyone, they look out for one another exceptionally well in those circumstances, police each other by shunning, phone trees to so-and-so's mamma, the ever watchful eyes on the front porch.
Comically I've witnessed them un-police each other by covering for the other guy when the cruiser came along. Of course once the cruiser passed the rapscallion was cussed out for being a damned fool taking chances at being dragged before the magistrate for their ridiculously petty infraction. Oh, and "sorry Ma'am" when he realized a lady was within earshot of him. Guess he didn't know I was giggling the whole time. Loyalties to what and whom are perfectly illustrated in this anecdote IMO.
Strong sense of community and family is what I see. It doesn't seem to make them overly dependent upon one another with exception of need for approval in a social grease network kind of way. Thing is, appalachians of WV are much tighter a community than any other rural locale I've seen. People invited into the fold mysteriously don't characterize it as clannish. Sound familiar? Hill folk of Va and NC don't seem to go to pains for each other the way WV'rs do. It goes so much deeper than new england sensibilities you reference. The high crimes and misdemeanors among the everyday joes are failing to have a heart if you listen close to subtitles. I've seen grown men blush in WV, too. I wouldn't trade that for a city boy or forbearance of the national deficit.
The other part- laughing here at superstition implied- as if magical power of words could erase what makes WV special by uttering them? YAHWEH! (ducks for lighting). The alphabet vs the goddess kinda thing? ... maybe there's some truth to that. The best conversations I've had were silent ones, sipping some sweet tea together, coming to some mutual conclusions that I guess you could say nature was revealing to us in her way. My granny from Parkersburg and I had a rapport like that which no one looking on could understand. Standing outside it, there's a skully view and there's a mulder view. Skully thinks it would only mean if you advertise too well you'll get HOA weiners making tiki shop replica's of what was a Mountain but primo RE is flat for SUV's so let the developers level it out for a subdivision. Not unlike R601 alludes with howdy doody cookie cutter anti-bacterialized- to-death homogenized suburbia. Complaining about what makes them happy is pretty lame of me, and best I answer 'no thanks I'm having none'. Love of the coveted southern brick rancher gets no competition from me. Malvina Reynolds - Little Boxes lyrics theme song to HBO series WEEDS.
I hear Elvis Costello did a cover of the tune which intrigues me & hope to hear a sampler someday.
r601- Am I shopping lowe's and walmart? Sure. Are there choices? Somewhere on washington st W. is an old time hardware store but I seem to keep driving past it consistently. Demographics say no home depot for west charleston, but 119 south has both across the street from one another. kmart/walmart/target wars are good for someone? Love to hear the logic from forbes or money magazine someday. They're more qualified to speak on that subject than comprehend the real worth of Charleston.
The conditions you reference do exist everywhere in America, but WV doesn't bother with the pretense to hide it, and doesn't have the local funds to go that route even if those types do exist looking to control others. State charter keeps most of the $$ in state control and out of municipalities hands from what I've learned in other threads. Elsewhere these types devise clever ways to legislate away what they dislike through political clout (literally escort a criminal population to the state/county line for neighbors to inherit, harass low income families with $$$ dress codes for school kids, excessive ordinances, gated communities with elaborate HOA rules, or raise property taxes to such astronomical levels as to ensure only 6 figure enclaves exist through subdivided townships etc). $300 a plate guarantees the only undesirables they'll have to deal with is nouveau riche worming their way onto an A list. hahahahaa
Jamaica? Those haves and have nots are separated by drug dealing connections of the remote hills or outside $$ landing there. Similar for most islands throughout greater/lesser Antilles. They only have varying degrees of window dressing proportional to how well they're supported by tourism. Benetton opened a store for tourists, not for the native kids who can't afford dental care & are fine with a diet of goat meat & mango. Judge them? What for?
My first live experience of Washington DC was a senior trip on a High School bus. We were lost along an interstate, and the image of the ramshackled town home's with their laundry blowing in the dirty breeze had the stark backdrop of our white capital dome gleaming like a midnight sun in the dead of night. It's permanently etched upon my memory even if I wasn't quick enough with a camera. The bus driver was doing his level best to get the hell out of dodge before the suburban lambs in his charge were headline news. This IS our America.
I'm deeply worried for America & democracy in many ways libertarians point, but speak in terms of finance mainly because that is the only language of freedom left in America when capitalism is over relied upon to serve as a form of governance. Checks and balances hamstrung, we've been off kilter for decades now.
Maybe trev can't see the profound sorrow in that statement being from England which didn't promise the inheritance of an American dream. Accepting our 'lot in life' isn't supposed to be in our vocabulary. The illusion sold that our possibilities were limitless by virtue of citizenship, that the playing field is level for the best and the brightest if only we'd work hard and be the best in our fields.
Yeah. OK. Would that be why throughout America gifted kids in low income neighborhoods will never see ivy league? They weren't groomed and coached by money? No golf course connections? S.O.L. kiddo. But hey, as a consolation prize, you can charitably work in the warehouse with your agent orange handicap for the ivy league c student spared because had a senator for a daddy. Really you ought to be grateful? I could rant a while on that one alone so best I just drop this subject. Different forum, not WV. This IS our America, too. It's beautiful and horrible everywhere.
I'm convinced Vec & DK are right about WV being survivors though. Imagine a 200 yr boot camp of economic hardship- I doubt you'd find a more resourceful, hearty lot of folks anywhere in the states. Honestly, whom would you rather have in a fox hole beside you? Irish granny's tale of stone soup is alive here, and mainly I believe they've never relied on civilization/gov't coming through for them so they did it for themselves by whatever means available. Might not look pretty for the camera, but does it function? Yes, it does. Something every American could stand to learn IMO.
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
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For years I've carried in the cross bed toolbox on my truck, a tent, camping gear, fishing/hunting gear, cooking gear, first aid, and what I may need to live off the land with.
. . Imagine a 200 yr boot camp of economic hardship- I doubt you'd find a more resourceful, hearty lot of folks anywhere in the states. Honestly, whom would you rather have in a fox hole beside you? Irish granny's tale of stone soup is alive here, and mainly I believe they've never relied on civilization/gov't coming through for them so they did it for themselves by whatever means available. Might not look pretty for the camera, but does it function? Yes, it does. Something every American could stand to learn IMO.
And here I thought I was the only one who knew the story of stone soup.
I've explored enough of West Virginia to see folks as close to off-the-grid as you can get without unplugging, and eventually I'll be far and away enough to wave a hello to them too. Those types aren't the condition of "poor" I'm referring to . . I've stumbled over this abject poverty in Arizona near mining towns as well, seen the squalor of shanty lives. It's not an insult or judgement except to the wealthy who drink up these souls like a commodity. You'll find that same treatment among the illegal aliens in places, the dirty secret, that we still have slaves in this country.
Nothing wrong with being poor. Made me laugh whenever John Edwards would lead off, "When I was a boy . .", because if you've never had to drink powdered milk, then you don't know what poor is, John. If I was a politician, or a preacher, I'd rail against the evils of powdered milk! It's imported directly from hell! But I don't have anything but pride for my mother who worked 3 jobs when I was a boy to make $55 a week, Mr. Edwards. So spend $300 on a haircut, but please, shut the hell up.
Nothing wrong with being wealthy either. Fairly certain I won't ever have their problems though, so I try to look on the bright side. That's one less thing to worry about. Just my opinion, I don't think money is the root of all evil, but I have observed some problems with greed. It hurts people.
Brings us to Wal-Mart.
If you ever want to talk about economic health, the relevancy of course, being West Virginia, then we'd have to add to the discussion closing the doors of these these types of businesses, "shoo". In no uncertain terms they're a destroyer of communities, and culture. We'd suffer through the smears of the crass and their propagandist arguments, but what it really comes down to is, the religion of Wal-Mart is intoxicating. There are true believers, who despite all the facts you could lay at their feet, they would still keep shopping there. Like a typical god, Wal-Mart is a tyrant, and people are quick to be apologists for their gods, protecting it, but it's got a soft under-belly to put in the knife . . the mythological weapon to use is called common sense.
Not disagreeing with your comments about character, or other opinions, but regarding reliance upon the government, I have to refute your assessment, because 1 in 6 people in West Virginia are currently on food stamps.
I was a city girl from NE Ohio, moved to WV, got married and stayed. I was amazed to see the survival skills my hubby had. I'd never known anyone who hunted, chopped wood, knew plants in the woods - all the things country boys know how to do (and girls too).
It's not just what people think of as "country" boys that know these skills in WV. Hubby is a "professional" and I know a lot of professionals in WV that also have these skills.
I was thrilled that he taught these skills to our sons - I like knowing my guys have survival skills. As to hunting, before anyone complains, it is/was not just a sport to our family. We eat the meat.
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Sound familiar? Hill folk of Va and NC don't seem to go to pains for each other the way WV'rs do. It goes so much deeper than new england sensibilities you reference. The high crimes and misdemeanors among the everyday joes are failing to have a heart if you listen close to subtitles. I've seen grown men blush in WV, too. I wouldn't trade that for a city boy or forbearance of the national deficit.
Complaining about what makes them happy is pretty lame of me, and best I answer 'no thanks I'm having none'. Love of the coveted southern brick rancher gets no competition from me.
