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Am hardly on these forums. But there is a significant difference between occupation and colonization. For instance the United States is currently in Iraq and Afghanistan I can't say because they are there that they have colonized those countries even though they have been fighting there for several years and have a base there. When Russia was in Afghan I can't say they colonized Afghanistan. Can't also say that the US colonized Vietnam. Just because you have a presence in a country that due to that presence a country has colonized an entire country.
Italy basically occupied a state but not an entire country (your assessment is saying because Spain was in CA that they colonized the United States, that is not the case), the Ethiopian people kept fighting, the Ethiopian government was not overthrown whereby the people had to follow Italian law, the people's national language was not changed to Italian, and Ethiopia does not have an independence day victory days yes but no independence day. The Italians invaded Ethiopia twice and both time they did not take over Ethiopia. Sorry but this is also a fact that Italians will confirm, is in the history books, and is one of the reasons the League of African nations is in Ethiopia.
Am not sure where you are getting your information about Ethiopia and Eritrea but Eritrea is not doing better than Ethiopia, or many other countries in Africa. They aren't using their ports, can you explain their exports that they have over Ethiopia or any other country in Africa?
Xander, you are way off topic. But Europeans and nor any group doesn't have to be the majority ethnic group and or race to take over a country. In Ethiopia the smallest ethnic group rules the country. The point is that Ethiopia was not colonized because the people never gave up fighting for their independence, the Italians did not make the national language Italian, Ethiopia's national anthem did not change, the government was not overthrown by the Italians, no money was printed as Italian, Ethiopians did not follow any Italian law, there is no independence day. Sorry but that is a fact.
Not sure what your point is in showing a map because the highlighted section is not Ethiopia. It is Somalia, so still goes to my point. India was colonized to which Indians don't say it wasn't. Again, India had to follow the British rules/law they do have an independence day. The East Indians did not merge together to kick the Europeans out as many Indian empires were being destroyed at the same time. The Europeans has an easy advantage to take over. Even though Indians speak their own languages their national language was English. Italian was never the national language of Ethiopia.
Colonization and occupation are different they just are. Even though the Emperor fled the country the President didn't leave, HIM went to seek help from other countries abroad, and he returned and because he left it doesn't mean that the government was overthrown.
Am not sure why this fact rubs people the wrong way. But think what you want, you don't have to like Ethiopians or the fact that there are 2 countries that can claim never being colonized in Africa but tell the truth and don't try to re-write history. Next I guess people will also write that Obama is not black, Oprah is not a billionaire, and all of Africa is horrible scary place that one should never visit.
Xander, you are way off topic. But Europeans and nor any group doesn't have to be the majority ethnic group and or race to take over a country. In Ethiopia the smallest ethnic group rules the country. The point is that Ethiopia was not colonized because the people never gave up fighting for their independence, the Italians did not make the national language Italian, Ethiopia's national anthem did not change, the government was not overthrown by the Italians, no money was printed as Italian, Ethiopians did not follow any Italian law, there is no independence day. Sorry but that is a fact.
1) Actually Ethiopia was largely pacified by 1937 and most Ethiopians gave up fighting in the resistance by that date.
Having no independence means little in all honesty: Ethiopia was conquered by Italy.
2) Italian was indeed the official language of the country, though it wasn't spoken natively. As a matter of fact, still today you can find old people capable of speaking it and Italian still retains a small role as commercial language. The same applies to Eritrea and, before the civil war, to Somalia.
3) Italy indeed did print money :Italian East African lira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4) Ethiopia from May 9 1936 up to 1941 ceased to exist as an independent state and it was replaced by : Italian East Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Not sure what your point is in showing a map because the highlighted section is not Ethiopia. It is Somalia, so still goes to my point. India was colonized to which Indians don't say it wasn't. Again, India had to follow the British rules/law they do have an independence day. The East Indians did not merge together to kick the Europeans out as many Indian empires were being destroyed at the same time. The Europeans has an easy advantage to take over. Even though Indians speak their own languages their national language was English. Italian was never the national language of Ethiopia.
The map shows the whole Italian East Africa which was the second colony of Italy and comprised of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia.
Italian was the national language of Italian East Africa (and therefore of Ethiopia) even though Ethiopians spoke their own language.
Ethiopia was ruled by an Italian viceroy and according to Italian laws, this is a fact.
Plus, how can you explain all the buildings, facilities and constructions built by Italians if Ethiopia wasn't conquered and annexed to Italy?
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Colonization and occupation are different they just are. Even though the Emperor fled the country the President didn't leave, HIM went to seek help from other countries abroad, and he returned and because he left it doesn't mean that the government was overthrown.
The appointed prince-regent, Haile Ras Immirù (Ras Imru) surrendered to Italians in 1937...
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Am not sure why this fact rubs people the wrong way. But think what you want, you don't have to like Ethiopians or the fact that there are 2 countries that can claim never being colonized in Africa but tell the truth and don't try to re-write history. Next I guess people will also write that Obama is not black, Oprah is not a billionaire, and all of Africa is horrible scary place that one should never visit.
I don't have anything against Ethiopians and I don't care about your nationalistic view of history, I'm just saying basic historical facts.
Have I denied the atrocities Italians committed? Have I denied that Italians invaded another country? Have I denied the Ethiopian victory of Adua? Most certainly not.
In order for one to get their facts straight maybe you shouldn't gather all of your information from wikipedia a source that can be updated by just about anyone. Some of your context was updated just recently (2 days ago).
#1. In order to conquer a country you can't say that because a small section was occupied that it was conquered. The Italians simply did not conquer the entire country.
#2. Italian to this day is not nor every will be the native language or preferred language of any Ethiopian. For the most part Amharic is official spoken language although each tribe may speak something else. Ethiopians speak several languages, like French it doesn't mean that France is the nationally spoken language. Italians and Greeks are Ethiopia's neighbors and some people intermarried and or work abroad. Ethiopians also are in Yemen, Israel, Dubai, the US, etc. No Ethiopian would say that they are native speakers and that Italian can be commonly spoken in Ethiopia you are trying to satisfy something you have against Ethiopians to make a point.
#3. Italians did print money to identify themselves as players in the transformation of what they would recognize as Italian East Africa. This was done on an European political business scale, the people of Ethiopia did not recognize this money in their day to day operation. The Birr has been used in Ethiopia since the 18th century to this day. Other dominations have merged to bring more value to the Ethiopian currency and this can be true of many other emerging country's currency.
#4. From 1936-1941 Italy and Ethiopia fought Ethiopia. Ethiopians victoriously kicked the Italians out of their country. For the 5 years of the Italian occupation Ethiopians did not stop fighting for their freedom. The US was in Vietnam for like 10 years but did not colonize it, same can be said with the US being in Iraq and Afghanistan today but they have not colonized it or conquered for that matter.
#5. Your map shows Ethiopia, Somalia, and Erteria. Any body can make a map and say this is the area I want to own. So am sure there are plenty of maps that the Italians said they wanted to own/colonize. The highlighted sections of your map show a small portion of Ethiopia, Somalia, and Erteria. How can I explains the buildings of the Italians, the same way I can explain all of the Chinese building they are doing in the country today and is the same way I can explain the Greek fishermen, the Indian farmers, and all the other people that have helped to build the country. The Italians did not build up Ethiopia you are getting your facts wrong again. The contributors for building up Ethiopia are the Russians, Indians, Greeks, Italians (helped build the roads), and as of late the Chinese and of course Ethiopians. African Americans, Chinese, and Hispanics have built up the US, what is your point?
#6. Leul Ras Imru Haile Selassie was in power for only 3 days to be fair when Haile Selassi fled the country for help.The prior Prime Minister was killed but not by the Italians.
Actually, I don't have a nationalistic point of view of history. If it is important for you to misrepresent history this would not be the first time such a thing has happened. Maybe you believe Christopher Columbus discovered America and Thomas Edison discovered the light bulb?
In order for one to get their facts straight maybe you shouldn't gather all of your information from wikipedia a source that can be updated by just about anyone. Some of your context was updated just recently (2 days ago).
#1. In order to conquer a country you can't say that because a small section was occupied that it was conquered. The Italians simply did not conquer the entire country.
They did, end.
Any reliable source would say this, I don't know what you are talking about.
Ethiopians fought valiantly and with courage but they were defeated and the guerilla you keep on mentioning was largely wiped out by 1937.
Italians occupied the entire Ethiopia, otherwise explain me how it is possible that when the war broke out Italians attacked British forces in Somaliland, Kenya and Sudan since this would mean that they attacked from the whole Ethiopian border.
Then, if you want to believe in nationalistic tale that Ethiopians won the war but they were conquered, keep on doing it.
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#2. Italian to this day is not nor every will be the native language or preferred language of any Ethiopian. For the most part Amharic is official spoken language although each tribe may speak something else. Ethiopians speak several languages, like French it doesn't mean that France is the nationally spoken language. Italians and Greeks are Ethiopia's neighbors and some people intermarried and or work abroad. Ethiopians also are in Yemen, Israel, Dubai, the US, etc. No Ethiopian would say that they are native speakers and that Italian can be commonly spoken in Ethiopia you are trying to satisfy something you have against Ethiopians to make a point.
Nobody said that Italian was the native language.
#3. Italians did print money to identify themselves as players in the transformation of what they would recognize as Italian East Africa. This was done on an European political business scale, the people of Ethiopia did not recognize this money in their day to day operation. The Birr has been used in Ethiopia since the 18th century to this day. Other dominations have merged to bring more value to the Ethiopian currency and this can be true of many other emerging country's currency.
I said :
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Italian was indeed the official language of the country, though it wasn't spoken natively. As a matter of fact, still today you can find old people capable of speaking it and Italian still retains a small role as commercial language. The same applies to Eritrea and, before the civil war, to Somalia.
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#4. From 1936-1941 Italy and Ethiopia fought Ethiopia. Ethiopians victoriously kicked the Italians out of their country. For the 5 years of the Italian occupation Ethiopians did not stop fighting for their freedom. The US was in Vietnam for like 10 years but did not colonize it, same can be said with the US being in Iraq and Afghanistan today but they have not colonized it or conquered for that matter.
Without the British help, Italians would have never been kicked out of Ethiopia.
Then, explain me how it was possible to build 4,000 km of roads if Ethiopia was never conquered and guerilla was ravaging the entire country.
How can you explain that if Ethiopians "did not stop fighting", Italians enrolled thousands and thousands of Ethiopians in the colonial army? How do you explain that Italians were able to convince in 1943 some Ethiopian tribes to revolt against British?
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#5. Your map shows Ethiopia, Somalia, and Erteria. Any body can make a map and say this is the area I want to own. So am sure there are plenty of maps that the Italians said they wanted to own/colonize. The highlighted sections of your map show a small portion of Ethiopia, Somalia, and Erteria. How can I explains the buildings of the Italians, the same way I can explain all of the Chinese building they are doing in the country today and is the same way I can explain the Greek fishermen, the Indian farmers, and all the other people that have helped to build the country. The Italians did not build up Ethiopia you are getting your facts wrong again. The contributors for building up Ethiopia are the Russians, Indians, Greeks, Italians (helped build the roads), and as of late the Chinese and of course Ethiopians. African Americans, Chinese, and Hispanics have built up the US, what is your point?
Google Italian East Africa and you'll find plenty of maps. Is it all an evil conspiracy of Italians to falsify history?
Again, I never said that "Italians build the country", I said that Italians left a lasting legacy in Ethiopia since they build more than 4,000 kms of roads, railways, they built hospitals, postal offices, telegraphic points, commercial stations, they developed Harar and Dessiè,Italians abolished slavery , Italians abrogated feudal laws and gave much better rights to minorities (such as Azebo Gallà , Oromo, Ogaden tribes etc), Italians built aqueducts, schools and shops. Do all these contribution justify the invasion? NO, NO and NO (before someone accuses me of being an Imperialist).
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Actually, I don't have a nationalistic point of view of history. If it is important for you to misrepresent history this would not be the first time such a thing has happened. Maybe you believe Christopher Columbus discovered America and Thomas Edison discovered the light bulb?
I don't have anything against Ethiopians and I respect the longest history of the country and I'm not glorifying Italian colonialism, I'm just assessing the historical truth.
By no means am I siding with anyone but there were over 10,000 Italians in each of the regions of Italian East Africa.
Italians in each region:
Eritrea: 72,408
Scioa: 40,698
Somalia: 19,200
Galla-Sidamo: 11,823
Amara: 11,103
Harar: 10,035
This is for the year 1939.
They did, end.
Any reliable source would say this, I don't know what you are talking about.
Ethiopians fought valiantly and with courage but they were defeated and the guerilla you keep on mentioning was largely wiped out by 1937.
Italians occupied the entire Ethiopia, otherwise explain me how it is possible that when the war broke out Italians attacked British forces in Somaliland, Kenya and Sudan since this would mean that they attacked from the whole Ethiopian border.
Then, if you want to believe in nationalistic tale that Ethiopians won the war but they were conquered, keep on doing it.
Nobody said that Italian was the native language.
#3. Italians did print money to identify themselves as players in the transformation of what they would recognize as Italian East Africa. This was done on an European political business scale, the people of Ethiopia did not recognize this money in their day to day operation. The Birr has been used in Ethiopia since the 18th century to this day. Other dominations have merged to bring more value to the Ethiopian currency and this can be true of many other emerging country's currency.
I said :
Without the British help, Italians would have never been kicked out of Ethiopia.
Then, explain me how it was possible to build 4,000 km of roads if Ethiopia was never conquered and guerilla was ravaging the entire country.
How can you explain that if Ethiopians "did not stop fighting", Italians enrolled thousands and thousands of Ethiopians in the colonial army? How do you explain that Italians were able to convince in 1943 some Ethiopian tribes to revolt against British?
Google Italian East Africa and you'll find plenty of maps. Is it all an evil conspiracy of Italians to falsify history?
Again, I never said that "Italians build the country", I said that Italians left a lasting legacy in Ethiopia since they build more than 4,000 kms of roads, railways, they built hospitals, postal offices, telegraphic points, commercial stations, they developed Harar and Dessiè,Italians abolished slavery , Italians abrogated feudal laws and gave much better rights to minorities (such as Azebo Gallà , Oromo, Ogaden tribes etc), Italians built aqueducts, schools and shops. Do all these contribution justify the invasion? NO, NO and NO (before someone accuses me of being an Imperialist).
I don't have anything against Ethiopians and I respect the longest history of the country and I'm not glorifying Italian colonialism, I'm just assessing the historical truth.
When it came to Ethiopians view of the italians vs the Ethiopian elite and the ruling ethnics group, there was a divide. Most Ethiopians living under italian rulebwho didnt belong to the ruling ethnic groups, loved the italians. My mother who lived in Harar (where there was the highest concentration of italians) only had good memories of them. They taught the people how to build roads, they constructed buildings, they taught them italian recipes and tgere was many interracial marriages( Habesha Ethiopian women are known for their beauty). There was alot of cultural exchange. You have to understand that iEthiopian/Abyssinian society before italian occupation was largely feudalistic. Most Ethiopians who werent of the ruling ethnic group/ruling families/Technocratic class were serfs and were treated horribly by the elites. And those who belonged to the Tigrenya or Oromo ethnic groups were treated outright inhumanely by the ruling Amharas. Ethiopia was created largely by the subjugation of many Afroasiatic ethnic groups by the Amharas, so there were many ethnic groups who were indifferent to the italians as they saw them as the lesser of two evils. I myself am half amhara, half Harari and the only reason why my mother met my father is because king Menelik a century ago had persuaded many Amharas inlcuding my fathers family to live in non Amhara land inorder to consolidate their Territorial gains. Ethnic politics is quite interesting in Ethiopia and is a major reason why Ethiopia is so messed up.
Italians who lived in Ethiopia (not the soldiers) were seen as a positive force in Ethiopia. Actually when Italy withdrew from Ethiopia after WW2, Haile selassie asked many Italian families who had lived in Ethiopia during the occupation and built businesses to stay and help modenise the country.
Last edited by UltimateLegacy; 04-03-2015 at 12:05 PM..
You are talking in circles. 4,000 km of roads built by the Italians means that they must have concurred Ethiopia? Ethiopia is the twice the size of Texas. Ethiopia is 1.127 million km, 4,000 km is nothing.
Italy invaded Ethiopia and I am sure there were people that surrendered and people that also fought with the Italians just like the Eritreans did, these are the eliminates of war and I am sure there were many Ethiopians that did not like the government that was in power at the time. But as a whole country the invasion of Italy didn't mean that the people gave up their freedom. Ethiopia did declare war against Italy. Ethiopia had many supporters who helped drive the Italians out of Ethiopia, with or without the British Ethiopia would be victorious just might have been a longer occupation. Many countries helped drive the Nazis out of Europe too. The US and other European countries are in the middle east right now. Italians that were in Ethiopia before the WWII also fought alongside Ethiopians too for Ethiopia.
Italians like many other people (Greek, Russians, Chinese, Armenian, Indian, etc) have been in Ethiopia long before the 2nd invasion of Ethiopia. Italians, have been in Ethiopia since the 19th century. Italians as a result of the invasion had to rebuild what they destroyed. Many countries have contributed to building Ethiopia, Italians are still there and will always be in Ethiopia.
The Italians did not free Ethiopians from slavery, Haile Selassie did abolish it in the 1920's. It was part of Mussolini's propaganda to broadcast to the world many false reports that things like slavery still existed in Ethiopia in an attempt to influence world opinion against Ethiopia. H.I.M did many things to modernize the country at the time and abolishing slavery was one of them. Even the Italians and Eritreans that were captured and still imprisoned upon his return were freed.
Italians did not conquer all of Ethiopia, your own map doesn't show that. In what you looked up and posted even contradicts itself. Some portions refer to colonization of Ethiopia then it says occupation. The Italians couldn't even afford to colonize Ethiopia.
When you google and read books of history, Ethiopia will be noted as one of the few countries in the world to never have been colonized. Didn't happen in the 1800's and didn't happen in the 30's. You posted the Italian wiki pages so I'll post a view of Ethiopian pages (still not a fan of wikipedia).
Eritrea and Somalia was part of Ethiopia at one point, so if Italians want to show a map and say that was Ethiopia and therefore a colony of Italy knock yourself out. History can be deceiving depending on who is writing history and their intentions, for many years in the history books of So. Africans the white So Africans claimed that they were always there. In order to reflect on history one has to dig deeper than wikipedia which just about anyone can change and doesn't have to be a noted historian.
Xander,
You are talking in circles. 4,000 km of roads built by the Italians means that they must have concurred Ethiopia? Ethiopia is the twice the size of Texas. Ethiopia is 1.127 million km, 4,000 km is nothing.
Sure, they were nothing but the modern Ethiopia still relies on them.
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Italy invaded Ethiopia and I am sure there were people that surrendered and people that also fought with the Italians just like the Eritreans did, these are the eliminates of war and I am sure there were many Ethiopians that did not like the government that was in power at the time. But as a whole country the invasion of Italy didn't mean that the people gave up their freedom. Ethiopia did declare war against Italy. Ethiopia had many supporters who helped drive the Italians out of Ethiopia, with or without the British Ethiopia would be victorious just might have been a longer occupation. Many countries helped drive the Nazis out of Europe too. The US and other European countries are in the middle east right now. Italians that were in Ethiopia before the WWII also fought alongside Ethiopians too for Ethiopia.
The Italians did not free Ethiopians from slavery, Haile Selassie did abolish it in the 1920's. It was part of Mussolini's propaganda to broadcast to the world many false reports that things like slavery still existed in Ethiopia in an attempt to influence world opinion against Ethiopia. H.I.M did many things to modernize the country at the time and abolishing slavery was one of them.
Even the Italians and Eritreans that were captured and still imprisoned upon his return were freed.
Italian colonial troops who were captured were either executed or they had a hand cut off, there were several episodes of Italian soldiers and civilians murdered by Ethiopians moreover.
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Italians did not conquer all of Ethiopia, your own map doesn't show that. In what you looked up and posted even contradicts itself. Some portions refer to colonization of Ethiopia then it says occupation. The Italians couldn't even afford to colonize Ethiopia.
Dark green
How it was divided the colony:
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When you google and read books of history, Ethiopia will be noted as one of the few countries in the world to never have been colonized. Didn't happen in the 1800's and didn't happen in the 30's. You posted the Italian wiki pages so I'll post a view of Ethiopian pages (still not a fan of wikipedia).
I didn't post Italian wiki pages but English ones.
Emperor Haile Selassie's reign was interrupted in 1935 when Italian forces invaded and occupied Ethiopia. <--- You see? They don't say "a part of Ethiopia" or "some regions of it", they say "Ethiopia".
The Italian army, under the direction of dictator Benito Mussolini, invaded Ethiopian territory on October 2, 1935. They occupied the capital Addis Ababa on May 5. Emperor Haile Selassie pleaded to the League of Nations for aid in resisting the Italians. Nevertheless the country was formally annexed on May 9, 1936 and the Emperor went into exile.
The war was full of cruelty: the Ethiopians used Dum-dum bullets (prohibited by the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration IV,3) and the Italians used gas (prohibited under the Geneva Protocol of 1922).[52] Many Ethiopians died in the invasion. The Negus claimed that more than 275,000 Ethiopian fighters were killed compared to only 1,537 Italians, while the Italian authorities estimated that 16,000 Ethiopians and 2,700 Italians (including Italian colonial troops) died in battle.[53]Italy in 1936 requested the League of Nations to recognize the annexation of Ethiopia: all member nations (including Britain and France), with the exception of the Soviet Union, voted to support it. The King of Italy (Victor Emmanuel III) was crowned Emperor of Ethiopia and the Italians created an Italian empire in Africa (Italian East Africa) with Ethiopia, Eritrea and Italian Somalia. In 1937 Mussolini boasted that, with his conquest of Ethiopia, "finally Adua was avenged" and that he had abolished slavery in Ethiopia.[54]
The Italians invested substantively in Ethiopian infrastructure development. They created the "imperial road" between Addis Abeba and Massaua, the Addis Abeba - Mogadishu and the Addis Abeba - Assab.[55] 900 km of railways were reconstructed or initiated (like the railway between Addis Abeba and Assab), dams and hydroelectric plants were built, and many public and private companies were established in the underdeveloped country. The most important were: "Compagnie per il cotone d'Etiopia" (Cotton industry); "Cementerie d'Etiopia" (Cement industry); "Compagnia etiopica mineraria" (Minerals industry); "Imprese elettriche d'Etiopia" (Electricity industry); "Compagnia etiopica degli esplosivi" (Armament industry); "Trasporti automobilistici (Citao)" (Mechanic & Transport industry).
Much of these improvements were part of a plan to bring half a million Italians to colonize the Ethiopian plateaus. In October 1939 the Italian colonists in Ethiopia were 35,441, of whom 30,232 male (85.3%) and 5,209 female (14.7%), most of them living in urban areas.[56] Only 3,200 Italian farmers moved to colonize farm areas, where they were under sporadic attack by pro-Haile Selassie guerrillas.
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Eritrea and Somalia was part of Ethiopia at one point, so if Italians want to show a map and say that was Ethiopia and therefore a colony of Italy knock yourself out. History can be deceiving depending on who is writing history and their intentions, for many years in the history books of So. Africans the white So Africans claimed that they were always there. In order to reflect on history one has to dig deeper than wikipedia which just about anyone can change and doesn't have to be a noted historian.
Listen, I don't have anything against either you or Ethiopians, I don't earn anything from this and I'm sick of debating something as obvious as the fact that Ethiopia was conquered by Italians and that without British aid, they would have never won.
Now, before you start again with your whole "Ethiopians didn't surrender, bla bla, freedom, kicking out Italians, map false etc etc", I am making you this example: we all know that Ethiopians won at Adua in 1896, right? Now, what if I said that "Adua never existed, you falsely claim it"? You would rightly point out that there are plenty of books, witnesses, painting etc about it, right?
This is the same point applied to the debate of whether Italians conquered Ethiopia or not.
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