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The funny BS thing about all this discussion. For the most part, they all use the same parts in some model or another. Hyundai (Mobis) makes parts for Jeep and provides the same parts of use in Hyundais, GM designs transmissions for Toyota. Everyone uses ZF transmissions (a German Company that builds transmissions in South Carolina).
It is not a single supplier of a given part for every company, but there are multiple suppliers and they are used by multiple companies for various models. Not every part is that way, but so many that there is really no significant difference between the makers. It really comes down to who has selected the best combination of parts suppliers for a given model. Sometimes the same part will work well in one car and not in another.
As a hypothetical example You will find the exact same door lock mechanisms in a Chevy Impala as in a Honda Accord. they are made by company XYZ in China and both companies buy the same door lock mechanisms form the same supplier.
(For those who do not understand hypotheticals, I do not know whether door lock mechanisms are actually the same between those two cars, it is just an example of the concept.)
Maybe a better example is Takata airbags. Look how many difference companies got burned by that mess. You cannot say one mfg is better than the other in all instances, not even in most instances. They are all drawing from the same pools of parts makers. They are all even selling parts and even designs to each other.
They may be selling parts or designs to each other but there are different degrees of quality of those parts. Just because they all buy from one manufacturer that item could have varying degrees of quality even though they may look identical the components or materials it was built with could be built to completely different specifications.
You could have two wrenches built that look identical. One is made with a better metal than the other and will outlast the inferior built one simply due to the quality of the steel
GM’s faulty ignition switch would of cost 57 cents to fix. Why didn’t they do it right? Because they didn’t want to spend the money. You think anyone would of given a crap about a 57 cent price increase
I have been driving for over fifty years. I have owned American cars, German cars, a French car, an English car, Japanese cars and Japanese vehicles built here in the US. One regret is that I took too long to buy my first Japanese car.
When I was growing up, "Made In Japan" meant cheap and shoddy. It was hard for me to think that could ever change. Even though I have subscribed to Consumer Reports for over forty years, I just couldn't put my faith in their recommendations of the Japanese cars because cars cost so much and if they were wrong, I would be out a lot of money. After I bought a new 1978 VW Rabbit over a Japanese make and had ungodly problems with it, then traded it in for a new 1983 Dodge, which was worse, I decided to give the Japanese a shot. I bought a new 1985 Nissan Sentra. It was bulletproof! I traded it in for a new 1993 Nissan pickup truck which I still own! I bought a Toyota Tercel and a couple of Corollas and they have all been excellent cars. I will never buy a Detroit or European car again. My only regret was I was too stubborn to take the plunge earlier.
They may be selling parts or designs to each other but there are different degrees of quality of those parts. Just because they all buy from one manufacturer that item could have varying degrees of quality even though they may look identical the components or materials it was built with could be built to completely different specifications.
You could have two wrenches built that look identical. One is made with a better metal than the other and will outlast the inferior built one simply due to the quality of the steel
GM’s faulty ignition switch would of cost 57 cents to fix. Why didn’t they do it right? Because they didn’t want to spend the money. You think anyone would of given a crap about a 57 cent price increase
Here we go again the old GM people just can’t let it go can they so your say that the Takata airbags made for the American vehicles are made out of cheaper material than Honda is that what you are trying to say. The GM ignition was a long time ago. Look at the Toyota class action lawsuit on their Sienna van sliding door. Did they use a cheap lock. Hell every automaker is guilty of something Ford with the transmission slipping out of park, VW emissions scandal, and the 20 people who died in a Honda vehicle because of the Takata airbag, but you keep bringing up GM . The Takata airbag was a bigger lawsuit than the GM ignition problem and that a Japanese auto supplier.
One simple way to tell is this: Take two cars that compete in same category at same price. Say Camry and Impala. Look at what they are selling for 5 yrs later with same miles, options, conditions. Money talks.
That doesn't always tell the tale.
Here's a 2014 Impala 2LT with 108,000 miles. They're asking $13,585. I found another one with similar miles for $11,900. Here's a third with 90,000 miles for $13,788.
Now, for the Camry. First one I found is a 2014 SE model (looks to be similarly optioned to the 2LT Impala examples) with 100,000 miles. They want $9,999 for that one.
The second one has 95,000 miles and they're asking $12,973. It does have a sunroof, which the first Camry and none of the Impalas have, but I don't think that would affect the value all that much. And the final Camry has 87,000 miles and is listed for a very reasonable $11,987.
Price wise they seem to be very similar, with the Impala bringing a few thousand dollars more on average. With that said, the Camry probably better competes with the Malibu, and the Avalon is really the Impala's competition, but I'm too lazy to look through all the Avalon and Malibu listings and compare.
Another thing to note. The Impala is still the same body style that is on sale today, while the Camry has gone through two refreshes since 2014. If I'm remembering correctly, 2014 was the last year of that body style for the Camry as well. That might help to drag the value down a little on the Toyota.
Here we go again the old GM people just can’t let it go can they so your say that the Takata airbags made for the American vehicles are made out of cheaper material than Honda is that what you are trying to say. The GM ignition was a long time ago. Look at the Toyota class action lawsuit on their Sienna van sliding door. Did they use a cheap lock. Hell every automaker is guilty of something Ford with the transmission slipping out of park, VW emissions scandal, and the 20 people who died in a Honda vehicle because of the Takata airbag, but you keep bringing up GM . The Takata airbag was a bigger lawsuit than the GM ignition problem and that a Japanese auto supplier.
Either way I don’t care what car someone else buys. All I care about is the car I buy. After years of buying domestics and having multiple problems and I’m not talking little things I got tired of the service, overall quality, crap resale value and bs run around and excuses. I have no interest in ever buying a GM or Dodge product. I’m willing to give Ford a look but other than that no thanks.
You drive leases. You’re the perfect GM buyer. You don’t keep the car long enough to see the problems that they develop.
Last edited by Electrician4you; 03-26-2019 at 11:32 AM..
They may be selling parts or designs to each other but there are different degrees of quality of those parts. Just because they all buy from one manufacturer that item could have varying degrees of quality even though they may look identical the components or materials it was built with could be built to completely different specifications.
You could have two wrenches built that look identical. One is made with a better metal than the other and will outlast the inferior built one simply due to the quality of the steel
This is true in many respects. The F-150 frame is one example. Ford wrote into the supply agreements that certain aspects of the frame design could not be shared or built for another manufacturer. This was so when Toyota and Nissan came knocking at their doors, the F-150 supplier could not build them the same frame. That was one method of blocking Toyota/Nissan from copying it. (Which they have tried to do.)
It was very common for Toyota and Nissan to call our suppliers and say "Hey, build me that same widget that you are building for Ford." Of course our suppliers would then say "give me some specifications and we'd be glad to quote a price for you."
The same worked in reverse on the car side. When I worked on the Focus program we wanted to improve the quality of some of our parts (as well as lower the cost.) When we tried to get Asian suppliers like Denso and Aisin to play with us we were stalled and given entirely different treatment than their buddies at Toyota/Honda.
That's a big part of the reason why the domestics have struggled with cars and the Asians have struggled with trucks. It goes both ways....
The bottom line for me is, that I drive what I like regardless how it compares to others, or who builds it. If the Japanese or Europeans were building muscles cars that compete and held it's own with the Americans, I probably have one of theirs as well. But that's the segment I'm into at the moment, and like pickup trucks, the Americans own and dominates this segment. The Hyundai Genesis Coupe, was supposed to compete with the Americans in this segment when it first came out, but never stood a chance. It just never looked, sound, or performed the part well enough to compete there. And like pickups, most muscle car guys are pretty brand loyal. I do some serious homework on whatever I drive, I know all the good stuff and not so good stuff. I usually know way more than the car salesmen about the car I want. Regardless of negative comments, gas mileage, I just drive what I like.
[quote=Electrician4you;54781039]You think GM fired all its bean counters?
Either way I don’t care what car someone else buys. All I care about is the car I buy. After years of buying domestics and having multiple problems and I’m not talking little things I got tired of the service, overall quality, crap resale value and bs run around and excuses. I have no interest in ever buying a GM or Dodge product. I’m willing to give Ford a look but other than that no thanks.
You drive leases. You’re the perfect GM buyer. You don’t keep the car long enough to see the problems that they develop./QUOTE]
He doesn't even drive a GM or Dodge or American, this is the weird part?
This is true in many respects. The F-150 frame is one example. Ford wrote into the supply agreements that certain aspects of the frame design could not be shared or built for another manufacturer. This was so when Toyota and Nissan came knocking at their doors, the F-150 supplier could not build them the same frame. That was one method of blocking Toyota/Nissan from copying it. (Which they have tried to do.)
It was very common for Toyota and Nissan to call our suppliers and say "Hey, build me that same widget that you are building for Ford." Of course our suppliers would then say "give me some specifications and we'd be glad to quote a price for you."
The same worked in reverse on the car side. When I worked on the Focus program we wanted to improve the quality of some of our parts (as well as lower the cost.) When we tried to get Asian suppliers like Denso and Aisin to play with us we were stalled and given entirely different treatment than their buddies at Toyota/Honda.
That's a big part of the reason why the domestics have struggled with cars and the Asians have struggled with trucks. It goes both ways....
Well manufacturers tries to protect their designs. I get it. You R&D your azz off and you should reap the rewards. Like I said before IF the domestics made a car that had the longevity, quality to make it lasted 15 years with littleor no issues that would be one thing. But in my experiences with domestic brands it’s been only about 30% satisfactory. I had a few cars that ran great. Sure a few issues but nothing major.
I had a Chevy truck that the dealer called the white albatross. No joke. He has a mechanic that worked on that truck for 4 weeks straight. Worse vehicle I ever bought. Dropped a valve. , caught fires d lost a trans.It literally spent about 3 months in the shop one year. And I went to get it, the transmission wouldn’t work right. Can you imagine how frustrating it is to have truck that you can’t drive, dealer can’t fix and you’re stuck.
My dodge truck was in the shop after two weeks of ownership. Two damn weeks and it’s in the shop. It was downhill from there, by 72,000 mile had to rebuild the engine. Tha was after replacing the front and rear axle.
The damn battery was replaced three times by the dealer. It would just die. No reason. I carried a battery in the cab to jump it. I finally went to sears and got a Die Hard. It never had another issue starting. But it cost me $200 even though it was under warranty
Bad pressure sensor shot power steering fluid in the wiring harness. Dealer attempted repair.
I ended up figuring it out myself. Got my money back. Which was nice.
I’m not saying imports are perfect. They have issues too. I recognize that. Hey I used to scoff at buying imports. You wouldn’t of caught me dead in a Toyota 20 years ago. But after years of issues with domestics got tired and in 2004 I bought my first import. And that suv for 12 years was impeccable. I hated selling it. I had three issues. Two were less than $80 repairs and one was about $800 but I chose to do the timing belt at the same time. The repair would of been about $400 normally.
After that we bought a Infiniti and with a few recalls and a guage cluster that was replaced under warranty all I had to do in 180,000 miles was regular maintenance. I did have to replace the exhaust manifolds and front shocks but I could of welded but I chose to replace them. But it was 180,000 miles. Other than that the engine and trans are still smooth as silk and absolutely not one drop of oil or fluids. Doesn’t burn oil at all.
I can’t sit here and say yes domestics are great when I’m replacing axles at 30/60,000 engines at 70,000 miles, transmissions at 100,000 and I had trucks that literally were leaking like sieves at 60,000 miles. I had good luck with some domestics. My old gmc is a leaker but it wheezed and coughed his way to 400,000 miles on original engine.
My wife’s GMC was a great car for 19 year we kept it. Granted in its last 9/10 years it was a third vehicle only getting 5-800 miles a year on it. But it had a few issues.not many. It was a pretty reliable car.
My diesel fords run great. I did need to rebuild the front axles but they’re huge heavy trucks.
Ive had more issues with domestics than I had good experiences. That’s why I don’t have domestics at the top of my list
Last edited by Electrician4you; 03-26-2019 at 01:41 PM..
Absolutely not, American cars are junk. Even the Koreans make better cars than Americans now..
Come point out to me on my Volt where it's junk. It was highly innovative when it came out, and well built. It's reliable, comfortable and solid.
My Suburban 2500 is also solid, reliable and well built. It's also quite strong, towing my 35 ft travel trailer with ease even over the mountains.
BTW, I've owned over a hundred cars in the last 40 years, from most major manufacturers worldwide. I've also worked on hundreds more, from Pintos to Porsches. I like cars and know cars, in and out.
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